Alun
Michael: May I say what a pleasure it is to serve under
your chairmanship, Mrs. Dean? I am sure that the Committee
will be one of the more disciplined ones as a result.
I am also a
member of the Welsh Affairs Committee, but I joined it after it had
dealt with the hearings on this particular order. I rise to say a word
about the process. The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire referred
to framework powers in primary legislation and suggested that they
might be preferable to going down the avenue of the powers allowed by
the Government of Wales Act 2006. I suggest to him that if
we get the process right, the legislative competence orders may turn
out to be a better means of scrutiny, given the expertise on the Welsh
Affairs Committee and its development of a good understanding with the
Members of the Welsh Assembly who have a role in scrutiny. The hon.
Gentleman rightly says that the process was criticised by the Welsh
Affairs Committee at this stage as unsatisfactory. Indeed, the Select
Committee made similar points on a subsequent legislative competence
order.
However, I
believe that the steps that the Chairman of the Committee, my hon.
Friend the Member for Aberavon (Dr. Francis), has taken to develop
better liaison with members of the relevant Assembly Committee in
respect of each order, and the very good evidence sessions that have
taken place with Assembly Ministers and Deputy Ministers in recent
weeks, have contributed to a significant move towards the Welsh Affairs
Committee of this place and the Committees undertaking scrutiny in the
Assembly being complementary in the work that they undertake. That is
an extremely important and positive
development.
Mr.
Jones: The right hon. Gentleman and I both served on the
Committee considering the Planning Bill. Does he agree that,
paradoxically, the level and depth of scrutiny being applied to
legislative competence orders is significantly more than that for
framework powers in primary Bills? Indeed, does he also agree that in
the case of the Planning Bill, there was unfortunately no scrutiny at
all on the Floor of the House on Second Reading, Report or Third
Reading?
The
Chairman: Order. We need to focus on the contents of this
order, rather than on the wider
remit.
Alun
Michael: I take your stricture to heart, Mrs
Dean. I anticipated that we would be kept to the issues that are before
us.
The point I am
trying to make is that the Welsh Affairs Committee was able to focus on
the purpose of this power and the purpose of amending the legislation.
As the Under-Secretary mentioned in his opening remarks, we have a
piece of legislation that is absolutely clear. Its intention is clear.
It is clear that the points made during scrutiny by the Welsh Affairs
Committee, as well as by the Assembly Committee, have been taken into
account and it is a much better piece of legislation as a
result.
The hon.
Gentleman sought to introduce a paradox by looking at planning.
Actually, the planning legislation was detailed, appropriate and
suitable to dealing with Welsh measures, but there was not the sort of
Committee scrutiny that there has been on this legislative competence
order and that there will be on subsequent ones. It bodes well for the
future that the scrutiny of legislative competence orders will be done
by this place and the Assembly, complementing each other’s
interests in getting things right for the people of Wales. The process
makes use of the strengths of Members of the House, including in some
cases those with professional backgrounds, as the hon. Gentleman
mentioned. Moreover, our interests on behalf of our constituents to
ensure that the powers given to the Assembly through this process are
appropriate and thought through by the Assembly are met on
this
occasion. I
hope that the end result of the application of these powers will be
consistency— perhaps that is a better word than
uniformity—in terms of the level of charging that is made for
the services, given that the 22 councils in Wales differ in size and in
geography, and thus in the cost of services in some cases. As I said,
the order represents a step forward in the joint working between Welsh
Members of the House of Commons and Members of the Welsh Assembly. It
is to be welcomed. It will be good for our constituents, but, as I
said, the process of its scrutiny has also taken us a step forward
towards a high quality of scrutiny in this place. That, surely, is to
be welcomed
too. 4.54
pm David
T.C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): I also rise as a member of
the Welsh Affairs Committee, albeit, I have to confess, not a very good
attender at the moment. You will know the reason for that,
Mrs. Dean: it clashes with the Home Affairs Committee, of
which I am an assiduous attender.
Alun
Michael: I just want to be clear whether the hon.
Gentleman is indicating an order of
priorities.
The
Chairman: Order. We are not here to discuss the attendance
of various Committees.
David
T.C. Davies: It is probably as well that I need not answer
that question.
Suffice it to
say that the Minister has made a perfectly cogent and reasonable case
for this LCO, based on the fact that it is not controversial and that
there is a disparity in the levels that local authorities charge.
Nobody could really argue with that or the case that he has put
forward. However, one might be inclined to ask him, as a Minister of a
Government who are a national UK Government—long may it be
so—why the case that he has put forward so well for Wales does
not appear to be applied to England. Perhaps he is not in a position to
answer that question.
I am
concerned that although there is clearly a problem in Wales which the
LCO may put right, it could also be the case that the Welsh Assembly
finds that it is unable to deal with the matter in a fair fashion. It
is quite possible that local authorities that are currently charging
more may come back to us later and say that, surprise, surprise, they
have not been reimbursed the extra money that they need and have been
asked to find it out of other funds for schools, from other parts of
the social service budget, from funds for cleaning the streets or
whatever. The question that I have for the Minister is, just as we have
the power to add things to schedule 5 of the 2006 Act, do we have the
power to take them away again if we discover that the Welsh Assembly is
not dealing with them in the manner that we would like?
Perhaps I
should make more time to attend the Welsh Affairs Committee and not the
Home Affairs Committee, as I would be throwing not just a spanner in
the work, but on occasion an entire toolkit. I find it worrying that we
can give these extra powers to the Welsh Assembly but do not have the
power to take them away again. There are so many areas, which I cannot
go into now, in which the Welsh Assembly has shown itself to be less
efficient than the Government in England. I look forward to the
Minister telling us just how easy it would be to remove the power if we
find that things are not working.
4.57
pm
Huw
Irranca-Davies: I am pleased to rise and respond to the
many well-informed contributions that have been made in the process of
scrutinising this order. I shall deal with them roughly in the order
that they arose.
The
hon. Member for Clwyd, West raised once again an issue that has proved
a continuous theme of scrutiny in our discussions: fettering the
discretion of local authorities. It is right to say that whatever
arrangements are made regarding a Measure, they must be done in an open
and inclusive way and with close consultation with local authorities
and other stakeholders. I understand that the Welsh Assembly Government
intend to take a collaborative approach to devising options for the
shape of any Measure and on testing the likely impact of the proposals
prior to implementation. I think that all members of the Committee
would welcome that approach. While we are proposing that a competence
be devolved to the Assembly, when a Measure is subsequently brought
forward, it is right that it is also subject to the wide consultation
and scrutiny in the National Assembly for Wales.
The hon.
Gentleman also raised the issue of compensation for local authorities,
which has quite rightly been raised on several occasions, to try to
test what resource implications the order will have. The extent to
which the Assembly Government might decide to compensate local
authorities for any revenue that they lose as a result of the Measure
should be considered by the National Assembly when it is introduced,
subject to the consultation and scrutiny.
Mr.
Jones: I hear what the Minister says, but I seem to recall
that he made reassuring noises when he was asked about that issue by
the Select Committee.
Huw
Irranca-Davies: Absolutely, and the hon. Gentleman is
right to pay reference to what I said then and what I and the Welsh
Assembly Government Minister continue to stand by. We do not go back on
those assurances at all. In parallel with many other members of the
Committee, I welcome the considered and warm approach that has been
taken to this issue, recognising that this is a good potential
competence to convey to the Assembly. It could have an impact on and
give real value to people’s lives. Potentially it will impact on
and give real value to people’s lives.
The hon.
Member for Brecon and Radnorshire asked whether the provision could
have been appended as part of a framework power in relation to another
Bill. I assure him that even now, as we consider the draft legislative
programme for the next Session of Parliament, the Welsh Assembly
Government and a wide range of consultees are invited to comment and
make observations about whether they could introduce a legislation
requirement as part of the overall legislative programme for England and
Wales. That is always an option. However, we
must balance that against what my right hon. Friend the Member for
Cardiff, South and Penarth mentioned: the appropriateness of an LCO
because of the timeliness with which it can be brought forward at the
request of the National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Assembly
Government, and the capacity for effective scrutiny in a Standing
Committee, in the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs and elsewhere.
There are many advantages to that, and we have to find a balance, not
hitch things up to any passing wagon for the sake of it. The scope
needs to be appropriate as well.
Hywel
Williams: Will the Minister assure the House that he and
his colleagues intervene early in the process of making decisions about
framework powers and LCOs? I asked the Leader of the House about this
very point on Wednesday when she announced the equality legislation and
she said she would have to consult the First Minister.
Huw
Irranca-Davies: I can indeed give the hon. Gentleman an
assurance that there is very full, frank and open dialogue at official
and ministerial level to identify opportunities in the legislative
programme that may come from the Welsh Assembly Government, or for them
to be identified very early on. No opportunity is missed for want of
discussion and attempts to see opportunities. However, to some extent
what happens is at the behest of the Welsh Assembly Government,
identifying for us what they see as the appropriate vehicle by which to
present legislation. We respond to that.
The hon.
Member for Brecon and Radnorshire also referred to the vulnerable
children LCO, which is progressing. That was identified by the Assembly
as the appropriate way to introduce the Measure at the time it was
wanted, and to afford it scrutiny at the level that we have seen. The
order fell outside the scope of the Children and Young Persons Bill, so
a framework power was not deemed appropriate in that
instance. The
hon. Member for Caernarfon talked about scrutiny in the Welsh Affairs
Committee and in Whitehall. The process is evolving and in a very
positive way. The Welsh Affairs Committee is considering how it evolves
its own role in scrutiny and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of
State has also been very open in discussing matters with anyone who
wants to offer suggestions about the way forward for scrutiny. He has
met hon. Members, but I open the invitation to others, as I am sure
that the Welsh Affairs Committee would also be interested in hearing
from them as it considers how to refine the process.
From the
perspective of the Wales Office, we already have a range of ways in
which we can improve the mechanism by which we introduce LCOs in a
timely way—not rushing scrutiny, but with appropriate scrutiny;
working through the system in an improved way.
My right hon.
Friend the Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth referred to the way in
which this LCO has evolved. We are getting better with every one at
giving the right amount of scrutiny. He also referred to our continuing
role in scrutiny and as constituency representatives. Some areas are
devolved, but that does not stop individuals coming to raise issues
with us, and it is right to give those concerns appropriate
scrutiny here.
The hon.
Member for Monmouth referred to the cogent and reasonable case that I
made, and I try to be a cogent and reasonable Minister at all times. If
I am not mistaken, Hansard will record that he talked of his
wish to see me long remain a Minister of the Crown in the UK
Parliament, and I welcome that.
David
T.C. Davies: I do not actually remember that comment, but
let me say that I would be happy for the Minister to remain in his post
longer than any other Labour Minister until we have a change of
Government.
Huw
Irranca-Davies: Even if it was an inadvertent compliment,
I welcome any compliments, because they are few and far
between.
The hon.
Gentleman’s main point related to whether we are in a position
to claw back the power if we do not like what they are doing in Wales.
Given where we are with the 2006 Act and with the evolution of the
devolutionary mechanisms, we must have an element of trust in the fact
that not only Labour, Plaid Cymru and independent Assembly Members, but
Conservative Assembly Members, will carry out their role well,
scrutinise measures well and introduce measures of their own making as
appropriate.
I suspect
that what the hon. Gentleman proposes is not reverse devolution, but a
full-scale, headlong retreat from where we are. I would certainly not
advocate that, although I note that he is nodding at me as I speak. All
that I would say to him, as I would to all members of the Committee, is
that we should trust Assembly Members. The hon. Gentleman was formerly
an Assembly Member, and he was very outspoken and a very diligent
attender in the Chamber. I am sure that he trusts his own Conservative
colleagues in the Assembly to scrutinise measures.
In
conclusion, this LCO represents progress in the way in which we
scrutinise issues and in our delivery to the people of Wales. It is
often asked what difference these LCOs make in reality to individuals
living in Wales, but as we have heard, the order before us has the
potential—subject to Measures introduced by the Welsh Assembly
Government and the National Assembly for Wales—to make a
material difference to the quality of people’s lives. With that,
I thank Committee members from Wales and England who have supported and
expressed their interest in this LCO and I commend it to the
Committee.
Question
put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the
Committee has considered the draft National Assembly for Wales
(Legislative Competence) (Social Welfare) Order
2008. Committee
rose at eight minutes past Five
o’clock.
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