The
Committee consisted of the following
Members:
Chairman:
Mr.
Martin Caton
Bradshaw,
Mr. Ben
(Minister of State, Department of
Health)Buck,
Ms Karen
(Regent's Park and Kensington, North)
(Lab)
Clarke,
Mr. Charles
(Norwich, South)
(Lab)
Cooper,
Rosie
(West Lancashire)
(Lab)
Cryer,
Mrs. Ann
(Keighley)
(Lab)
Dorrell,
Mr. Stephen
(Charnwood)
(Con)
Harris,
Mr. Tom
(Glasgow, South)
(Lab)
Johnson,
Ms Diana R.
(Kingston upon Hull, North)
(Lab)
Lamb,
Norman
(North Norfolk)
(LD)
Laxton,
Mr. Bob
(Derby, North)
(Lab)
Mulholland,
Greg
(Leeds, North-West)
(LD)
Penning,
Mike
(Hemel Hempstead)
(Con)
Redwood,
Mr. John
(Wokingham)
(Con)
Streeter,
Mr. Gary
(South-West Devon)
(Con)
Twigg,
Derek
(Halton) (Lab)
Wright,
Jeremy
(Rugby and Kenilworth)
(Con)
Rhiannon Hollis, Committee
Clerk
attended the
Committee
Third
Delegated Legislation
Committee
Monday 17
November
2008
[Mr.
Martin Caton in the
Chair]
Draft Civil Contingencies Act 2004 (Responders) Order 2008
4.30
pm
The
Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Ben
Bradshaw): I beg to move,
That the
Committee has considered the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 (Amendment of
List of Responders) Order
2008.
The
Order is a necessary, technical measure to ensure that any ambulance
trust that applies for and obtains foundation trust status retains its
responsibilities under the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 for what is
known as a category 1 responder. The Civil Contingencies Act imposes a
series of duties in connection with emergency planning and
responsiveness on local bodies, such as the police, fire brigade and
local authorities, which are category 1 responders. NHS foundation
trusts, which were first established in England in 2004, have different
status from other NHS trusts. They were established as independent
public benefit corporations; they are free from central Government
control; and they are accountable to their local population. The Act
classifies NHS foundation trusts as category 1 responders only if
they
provide
hospital accommodation and services in relation to accidents and
emergencies.
That
does not take account of the potential for foundation trusts to provide
ambulance services. In 2007, we announced that NHS
trusts that provide ambulance services would be able to apply for
foundation trust status from April next year, so this minor amendment
to the Civil Contingencies Act is needed, and I commend it to the
Committee.
4.31
pm
Mike
Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con): May I tell the Minister
at the outset that we support the Civil Contingencies Act, although I
wish to ask a few probing questions about the necessity for the order,
as I believe that there is provision for its powers in existing
guidance? As a former fireman, I have experience of being on a category
1 response and, as the Buncefield fire took place in my constituency
nearly three years ago, I wish to praise the emergency services for
their work there. Indeed, nearly all of the emergency organisations
involved are covered by the Act.
First,
section 5.4 of NHS Emergency Planning Guidance 2005
says that NHS organisations not designated as
responders should in any case act as if they were. I am not quite
certain if such provision is already in place in the Act. If it is, why
the necessity for the order? Secondly, annex 3A, which deals with
category 1 responders under the Civil Contingencies Act, separates
foundation trusts from ambulance services. If that is to be amended,
specifically because ambulance trusts are
becoming foundation trusts, such provision is already made for health
bodies in the annex. If the Minister deals with those two small
anomalies, either now or at some point in the future, Her
Majestys Opposition, would be quite
happy.
4.33
pm
Norman
Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD): I need not delay proceedings,
as the order makes a necessary amendment to take account of the fact
that ambulance trusts can now become foundation trusts. There is
therefore no need to detain the Committee
further.
4.34
pm
Mr.
Bradshaw: The implication of the first question from the
hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead derives from the original foundation
trust legislation, which went through the House at a time when we did
not envisage that ambulance trusts would necessarily go for foundation
trust status. That policy subsequently changed, which is the reason why
we are happy to make this adjustment. In answer to his second
pointand I will write to him about thisI suspect that
the point is that that was guidance, not legislation. What we need is
legislation to be absolutely confident that if ambulance trusts become
foundation trusts they will be subject to the Civil Contingencies Act.
Guidance alone would not be sufficient to guarantee
that.
Mike
Penning: I accept that that is probably the case, but I
should like clarification. May I clarify one more point? If a body
become a foundation trust, we could move it into the civil
contingencies category 1 response. Would that be the case, too, for NHS
Direct, should it pursue its application for NHS foundation status? I
understand, however, that it has withdrawn that application on the
basis that it was part of the civil contingencies response. Is that
correct, or is it something on which the Minister needs to write to
me?
Mr.
Bradshaw: I shall have to write to the hon. Gentleman
about that, too. I imagine that if NHS Direct qualifies in the same
category of responders under the Act, and that that proviso was not
allowed for in the original foundation trust legislation, we may find
ourselves in Committee, doing exactly what we are doing
today.
Mike
Penning: I just want to clarify the fact that, when the
Minister writes to me, that that would not prevent NHS Direct from
becoming a foundation trust.
Mr.
Bradshaw: That has not prevented ambulance trusts from
becoming foundation trusts, which is why we have had to introduce the
measure. If a decision were made that NHS trusts should do that, and we
needed to introduce a statutory instrument, we would do so in the
normal way. As for the hon. Gentlemans point about the
separateness of ambulance services in foundation trust legislation, I
shall have to write to him, as I cannot give him the clarification that
he
seeks.
Question
put and agreed
to.
Committee
rose at twenty-four minutes to Five
oclock.