The
Committee consisted of the following
Members:
Banks,
Gordon
(Ochil and South Perthshire)
(Lab)
Brooke,
Annette
(Mid-Dorset and North Poole)
(LD)
Campbell,
Mr. Ronnie
(Blyth Valley)
(Lab)
Duddridge,
James
(Rochford and Southend, East)
(Con)
Flello,
Mr. Robert
(Stoke-on-Trent, South)
(Lab)
Lilley,
Mr. Peter
(Hitchin and Harpenden)
(Con)
MacShane,
Mr. Denis
(Rotherham)
(Lab)
Main,
Anne
(St. Albans)
(Con)
Penrose,
John
(Weston-super-Mare)
(Con)
Plaskitt,
Mr. James
(Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for
Work and Pensions)
Ruane,
Chris
(Vale of Clwyd)
(Lab)
Selous,
Andrew
(South-West Bedfordshire)
(Con)
Smith,
Geraldine
(Morecambe and Lunesdale)
(Lab)
Tami,
Mark
(Alyn and Deeside)
(Lab)
Willott,
Jenny
(Cardiff, Central)
(LD)
Mark Oxborough, Committee
Clerk
attended the
Committee
Fifth
Delegated Legislation Committee
Wednesday 11 June
2008
[John
Bercow in the
Chair]
Draft Social Security (Students Responsible for Children or Young Persons) Amendment Regulations 2008
2.30
pm
The
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions
(Mr. James Plaskitt): I beg to
move,
That
the Committee has considered the draft Social Security (Students
Responsible for Children or Young Persons) Amendment Regulations
2008.
Good
afternoon, Mr. Bercow. It is a pleasure to serve on a
Committee under your chairmanship for the first
time.
The
regulations were laid before the House on 14 May. I believe
that the proposals are relatively straightforward, and I hope that they
will be widely welcomed. They will apply to jobseekers
allowance and income support. The intention is for single students with
children to be entitled to claim the appropriate benefit during the
summer vacation of their
course.
Benefit
provision is not usually available to full-time students during an
advanced course of education, as they are funded through educational
maintenance channels. However, during the summer vacation, certain
students with children are entitled to benefit, such as couples with
children if both parties to the couple are full-time students. They can
claim jobseekers allowance or income support during the summer
vacation of their course, provided that they meet all the other
conditions of entitlement to the
benefits.
Currently,
however, there is no such provision for single students with children
or a dependent young person to claim jobseekers allowance
during the summer vacation. Single students with children under 16 can
claim income support throughout their course of study on the basis of
being a lone parent, but once their child reaches the age of 16, they
are not classed as a lone parent and therefore cannot claim income
support. In comparison, couples with children or a dependent young
person who are both full-time students are entitled to claim income
support, in specific circumstances, during the summer
vacation.
By
making this change to jobseekers allowance and income support
regulations, we will remove the disparity in the treatment of single
and coupled students. We will thereby prevent the children of single
parents from being put at risk of child poverty. The change will remove
the discriminatory effect of the current regulations, and it is
compatible with the European convention on human rights. I hope that
the Committee will agree that the changes in the regulations are worth
while and necessary to ensure that all students with children have the
same opportunity to claim jobseekers allowance or income
support during the summer vacations of their
course.
2.33
pm
Andrew
Selous (South-West Bedfordshire) (Con): As the Minister
said, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon,
Mr. Bercow. I shall not detain you and the Committee
long.
As the
Minister said, the proposals are uncontroversial, and we shall
certainly not vote against them. I would go so far as to say that they
will plug an important gap, and I am pleased to see them in their
present
form.
Having
said that, I hope that you will permit me, Mr. Bercow, to
ask the Minister a couple of questions to seek clarification, so that
we are clear about exactly what we are talking about. The first is
about the phrase the summer vacation. We all know that
just about all universities have three terms and a long summer
vacation, but is there a definition of summer vacation?
Is it a minimum number of
weeks?
In
your constituency, Mr. Bercow, you have the fine university
of Buckingham, which I happen to know has four terms, rather than
three. No doubt it therefore has a rather shorter summer vacation. I
would not want students in your constituency to be unable to benefit
from the regulations. I have not done exhaustive research, but I know
that the three-term system is almost universal and that there is a long
summer vacation. Will the minimum period be six weeks? What will happen
if a university has a long Christmas break and a short summer break?
Could students not claim the benefits then, or will there be some
flexibility? In case universities change the way in which they operate,
it would be useful to know exactly what we are talking
about.
It
appears to me that the regulations will not apply to Northern Ireland.
Being a member of the Conservative and Unionist party, that always
concerns me, because Northern Ireland is a valid and important part of
this great United Kingdom. Those measures might be covered in other
delegated legislation, but given that no Northern Ireland Members are
with us today, it falls to me, as the first Opposition Member to speak,
to raise that issue. I would be pleased, therefore, if the Minister, or
his officials through him, could assure us that the situation in
Northern Ireland is covered, and that our fellow citizens there are not
still being discriminated
against.
Paragraph
7.4 and other paragraphs of the explanatory memorandum use the
words,
single people
with responsibility for a child or young person.
In 99 per cent. of
cases, it will be entirely clear what that means and, presumably, if a
child is in care, it would not apply because the student would not have
responsibility for them. Nevertheless, is there is legal definition of
that phrase?
Finally, on a
general point, regulation 2(2)(c)(i) uses the word
partner. These regulations will remove discrimination.
I certainly have one or two constituents, as, I am sure, does the
Minister, who would prefer to be referred to as a husband or wife. I am
not asking him to change these regulations, but, in general, would the
Department be averse to using the phrase, husband, wife or
partner? I am of the school of thought that we should call
people what they would like to be called. If people want to be referred
to as a partner, fine by meI have no problem
with that. However, given that some people have freely chosen to marry,
they might prefer to be referred to as a husband or a
wife. That is a small point, but language is important,
and given
that the regulations deal with discriminatory matters, a more general
approach might be preferable. If he could give a commitment to raise
that matter with his colleagues in future discussions, it would be very
welcome.
2.37
pm
Annette
Brooke (Mid-Dorset and North Poole) (LD): It is a pleasure
to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Bercow, albeit rather
brieflyI shall be even briefer than the hon. Member for
South-West Bedfordshire.
This is an
equality matter that I am glad to see addressed. I am possibly slightly
saddened in that it has been forced on the Government, rather than
introduced of their own free will. It struck me as I read about the
matter that those who will benefit are some of the most vulnerable
people in societyteenage mothers, for example, who, if they
have made the effort to get themselves back into full-time education,
need every bit of support that we can give them. I imagine that carers
of young people could include young carersanother very
vulnerable group. The measure is overdue and very important, although
the groups that I have mentioned need much more
support.
2.38
pm
Mr.
Plaskitt: This has been a short, but helpful discussion,
and I shall try to clarify the points that have been raised. I am
grateful to the hon. Member for Mid-Dorset and North Poole for
expressing her support. She is quite right: the measure relates to a
particularly vulnerable group of people, and it is right that we assist
them. The regulations are possibly overdue, but I am pleased that we
are now in a position to introduce
them.
The
hon. Member for South-West Bedfordshire raised several points. The
point about summer vacation will depend largely on the defined vacation
of the education institution in question. Individuals making a claim
for either of the benefits under the regulations will have to provide
proof to their jobcentre that, during the specified period for which
they are claiming the benefit, their institution is in its summer
recess. Proof will be needed that the term has finished, that the new
academic year starts on the specified date and that what is in between
is the summer recess. It will be different for different institutions.
The individuals who are claiming should be able to prove or demonstrate
the length of the period, when it began and when it will end.
The
arrangements do not include other recesses, such as Christmas and
Easter, because the educational support that full-time students receive
is designed to cover their support during that time. However, it does
not run over and include summer recesses. That is not part of the
definition of educational
support.
Andrew
Selous: I am a little puzzled by the Ministers
reply. If we are not talking about a minimum period, why exclude the
Easter and Christmas holidays? Vulnerable groups need money all year
round so, if there is not a minimum period, why not do any
vacation?
Mr.
Plaskitt: The reason is, as I have just said, that outside
the summer vacation, full-time students are deemed to be supported by
educational maintenance support. That extends over the whole academic
year, including the other vacations, but educational support
does not run across the summer vacation. Separate arrangements need to
be made for that. That is where the issue of benefit entitlement
arises.
The
hon. Gentleman asked about Northern Ireland. We are working closely
with the Northern Ireland Administration and, as is customary with such
benefit changes, they are taking forward their own separate
arrangements to parallel what we are doing here. I understand that they
will have something similar to us, but they will make provision for it
separately. They are on the same track.
Responsibility
is cited in the regulations, which borrow a phrase that the hon.
Gentleman will find throughout social security legislation. The
existing definition of responsibility is designed to ensure that the
issue is genuine, that the obligation on the parent is genuine and that
the child is truly in need of support. We have simply replicated the
terminology used throughout social security legislation.
Finally, and
ingeniously, the hon. Gentleman referred to the use of
partner. That reminds me of the rebuke that I receive
when I occasionally write to a constituent and address her as Ms. I
receive a strongly worded letter back saying emphatically, I am
Miss and do not wish to be addressed in any other way. I accept
that people have sensitivities about such matters. The only reason that
partner is used in the regulations and elsewhere is to
encompass all the arrangements that exist. It is simply easier to say
partner rather than keep spelling out all the possible
permutations. The term is used for ease of reference and for the sake
of completeness. I hope that my response has been sufficient to
reassure the hon. Gentleman, and that the Committee will accept the
proposals.
Mr.
Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): I apologise to
you, Mr. Bercow, the Committee and the Minister for not
being here at the start of the Committee. I merely want to know the
definition of a full-time student. I ask that because a number of young
people who have gone to university have come to me and, contrary to the
prevailing prejudice against them, they actually want to study hard and
to receive a lot of tuition, but find that they are receiving little
tuition and are expected to attend very few lectures. For some of them
who complain to me, 16 hours a week would be a welcome increase, not a
decrease. Under the rules of jobseekers allowance, is someone
who is given an inadequate period of study at university deemed to be
available for employment?
[Interruption.] Mr.
Plaskitt: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for
his intervention. If I have misunderstood his point, I hope that he
will intervene on me again. The period of 16 hours relates to the time
of work that an applicant may be asked to undertake as a means of
qualifying for jobseekers allowance during the summer recess.
It does not relate to the period of study. The 16-hour rule that the
right hon. Gentleman might be thinking of is a separate issue.
Conditionality is attached to the JSA claim in such cases. Unlike the
usual requirement that might require someone to be available to work
full time40 hours a weekthe stipulation will only be
16 hours because the person has care of a child. It relates
to the amount of work that the person might reasonably be expected to
do while in receipt of JSA, not the amount of time involved in
study.
For
benefit-claiming purposes, an individual will have to demonstrate the
educational institutions definition of the course to which they
have signed up; the institution will specify whether it is a full-time
course. It is then for the educational institution to determine the
studies in which the person engages. The benefit system simply needs to
establish that it is technically defined as a full-time course. There
are many ways to deliver a course that is defined as full time, but
those issues do not concern the benefit
system.
Mr.
Lilley: I am grateful for the Ministers full and
courteous reply. I was simply trying to put on record the
phenomenon that many young people at university today are distressed
that they are not getting a full-time education. That has nothing to do
with the regulations, but I have now put it on the
record.
Mr.
Plaskitt: It was an ingenious intervention and I hope that
the right hon. Gentleman has achieved the objectives that he had in
mind.
With that
established, I hope that the Committee will accept the
regulations.
Question
put and agreed
to.
Resolved,
That
the Committee has considered the draft Social Security (Students
Responsible for Children or Young Persons) Amendment Regulations
2008.
Committee
rose at fourteen minutes to Three
oclock.