Jenny
Willott: The Government said in their response to the SSAC
that from 2013 onwards, 75,000 to 100,000 lone parents would be helped
into employment. Will the Minister clarify whether that means that
those people will be in employment by 2013, or that they will be helped
into employment after
2013?
Kitty
Ussher: By is the correct answer, I think, but as I said,
the numbers are sensitive to the wider economic climate. It is not a
target; it is simply an estimate based on the economic assumptions at
the time. However, we will evaluate it on an ongoing basis in real time
as well as during the normal two-year period in which all Government
policies are
evaluated. There
is a general point to be made. We are in an economic downturn. Our
choice as policy makers is whether to accept that it will all get much
harder, put our hands up and not bother, or to say that now more than
ever, we need to keep people as near as possible to the labour market
so that they can take what opportunities are there. I strongly favour
the latter, so that people will be ready when the climate improves, as
it will, rather than having to start from scratch when greater
opportunities become available. However, there are many opportunities
in the economy at the
moment. The
hon. Lady mentioned training under the new scheme. There are two points
to make. First, we do not want to force people to leave training by
introducing a new scheme. That is why transitional arrangements will
apply to people already in training. She also said that it is surely a
good thing for people entering the labour market to have skills
training. We agree 100 per cent., and there are training routes through
Jobcentre Plus and the new deal. As part of the conversation with the
Jobcentre Plus adviser, it will be entirely appropriate for
the lone parent to undertake a relevant training course without losing
entitlement to benefits, as long as they can remain available for work
as well. That is normal. It happens anyway, and it will continue to
happen. If a lone parent decides to go into a full-time higher or
further education course, funding will be available through the normal
routes. They will continue to be eligible for that, and most colleges
and universities can support parents who go into full-time education,
according to their
needs. The
hon. Lady rightly mentioned sanctions and queried whether they would
increase child poverty. I want to make it absolutely clear that the
reason why we are introducing the changes is that they will help us
meet our ambitious child poverty targets. We are determined to do
everything that we can to reach them. We think that an extra 70,000
children will be lifted out of poverty as a result of the
regulations.
It may help
the hon. Lady to know that our internal data show that under the
current income support regime, only one in 20 lone parents subject to
the work-focused interview regime are sanctioned each year. At the
moment, engagement in work-focused interviews is required even for
those on income support. Of those sanctioned, more than half go on to
attend a work-focused interview within six months. We feel that on the
whole, people will probably engage well and that the number of people
sanctioned will be small.
Across the
whole JSA regime, about half those who end up being sanctioned say that
they wish that they had not got themselves into that situation and will
not do it again. The overall number of those sanctioned is low. We feel
that sanctions are necessary to ensure compliance. We are confident
that only a small number of people will end up being sanctioned, and,
when they are, there will be an exception for lone parents such that
the hardship regime will apply. The sanction will never be more than 40
per cent. of what they originally received in benefits, so they will
continue to receive 60 per cent. However, all the evidence
shows that the measure will prompt an abrupt change in behaviour, which
is, of course, what we want. If we had a regime without
sanctions, it would lead to far greater non-compliance, and we would
not be able to achieve our goal.
Jenny
Willott: Will the Minister confirm the Department’s
estimate of how many lone parents it expects to be sanctioned in the
first five years? I know she said that currently under income support,
the number is one in 20.
Kitty
Ussher: We had two relevant figures that can be used to
infer an answer. Among lone parents on income support, one in 20 does
not comply with the requirement to attend an interview, but once they
are nagged and the situation is explained to them, half of them turn
up. As we have not introduced the policy yet, our only other relevant
fact is the figure for all people—whether lone parents or
not—on JSA. About 60 per cent. of all customers on JSA had their
claim referred to a decision maker for an entitlement or sanction
during 2006-07. Of those, about half were sanctioned, and of those who
were sanctioned, most—three quarters—were sanctioned only
once and said that they would not repeat the behaviour that led to the
sanction. That makes me think
that the sanctions policy works and has precisely the effect that it was
supposed to. Obviously, we do not know the corresponding figures for
lone parents, because the policy has not been implemented, but with all
the safeguards that we have built in, we have no reason to think that
there will be a greater number of sanctions imposed, which is precisely
why we have built them
in. The
hon. Lady mentioned extended schools, which are an extremely important
part of the story. The policy will be fully implemented in 2010. That
does not mean that there will be a problem in areas where school
provision has not been fully extended but the JSA regime has been
introduced for parents with children under the existing cut-off age,
because if appropriate child care is not available, it will be
reasonable for the Jobcentre Plus adviser to concede that the
individual cannot take up the job under discussion. The reasonableness
test will solve the problem if child care is not available. We want
appropriate child care to be available, and, to sort out such problems,
that is where the feedback loop, involving information sent between the
child care partnership manager at Jobcentre Plus and the local
authorities, will be crucial.
Some parents
will end up in in-work poverty, but our firm belief is that the best
route out of poverty is to be in a job and to progress to a good
job—one’s wages will go up only is if one is in work and
progresses to higher paid work—so we are using blunt
instruments. However, it would not be reasonable to make somebody take
up a job that would lead to them being worse off, and that is also part
of the reasonableness test that Jobcentre Plus advisers will apply,
using the better-off calculator—a proven tool—to make
those decisions. So nobody should end up worse off and everybody will
end up better off as a result of going into work.
The hon. Lady
mentioned flexible working. Our policy on that is as it is. My noble
Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory
Reform is rightly considering all the issues, but no decisions have
been made.
The hon. Lady
also wanted precise information on the policy’s phased
implementation. From next month, for new and repeat claims, lone
parents of children aged 12 or above will no longer be on income
support—apart from the exceptions that we have already made,
which will involve a small number of people because we are talking
about new and repeat claims. The stock of lone parents with children
aged 12 or older will start being migrated in phases from March 2009.
There is to be a phased process rather than a cut-off date purely to
ensure that we can cope with it and introduce it in a way that works.
So, we will then start with parents of 14 and 15-year-olds and, by the
end of 2009, we will have migrated parents of children who are 12 or
over. The process will be implemented for the parents of children
aged 10 and over from October 2009, and for the parents of children aged
seven and over from October 2010. I hope that
helps. Jenny
Willott: Will the Minister write to members of the
Committee on this point? I understand what the phasing is in relation
to categories, but I wanted to know specifically about numbers.
Completely different figures have been given in the impact assessment,
the Jobcentre Plus presentation and answers to parliamentary questions.
The situation quite confused, so I should be grateful if the Minister
wrote to us giving the accurate
numbers.
Kitty
Ussher: I should be happy to write. I can also say that
58,000 lone parents on income support have a youngest child aged 12 or
over; 32,000 have a youngest child aged 11 or over; 36,000 have a
youngest child aged 10 or over; 38,000 have a youngest child aged nine
or over; and 83,000 have a youngest child aged seven or over. That may
answer the question, but we will check the Hansard report and
make sure that letters are written. I am happy to send a beautiful
diagram showing how the phasing will be implemented, if that will
help.
To answer the
question whether Jobcentre Plus staff have been fully trained: yes,
that is happening right now and they will be ready. I have every
confidence that appropriate advice will be given. The hon.
Lady’s point about domestic violence victims leaving home and
becoming lone parents abruptly was a good one. Obviously, at that point
the parent would, one presumes, put in an entirely new benefits claim
and would be supported through the system in doing so. They would go on
to the benefit to fit the rules appropriate to their circumstances,
depending on the age of their children.
That is
another example of how the system is designed to support people as they
work out what changes they need to make in their lives in their own
interest. The test of reasonableness will obviously apply. If someone
does not know even where they are to live and what child care is
available in their area, as one would assume would be the case in such
circumstances, it is unreasonable for them to start a job the next day.
I shall look into the question and if there is more that should be said
about it I shall make sure that I write to the hon.
Lady. I
am getting slightly hoarse, but I believe I have answered about 30
questions. I hope that the Committee will therefore approve the
regulations. Question
put and agreed
to. Resolved,
That the Committee has
considered the draft Social Security (Lone Parents and Miscellaneous
Amendments) Regulations
2008. Committee
rose at seven minutes past Ten
o’clock.
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