The
Chairman: Order. Before calling the next speaker, I advise
hon. Members that it would be helpful if I could call the Minister at
or around five past 10 to give her adequate time to set out the
Government’s case, and to respond to points that have been made.
I hope that hon. Members will tailor their contributions
accordingly. 9.58
am Ms
Dari Taylor (Stockton, South) (Lab): It is a pleasure, as
always, to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Bercow,
although I am disappointed that I cannot
have a cup of coffee. The regulations in this place have always fooled
me, and continue to do
so. I
have been taken aback by the contributions this morning. All change
causes concern, and we will watch it with considerable interest. Every
hon. Member who has spoken on the Opposition Benches has received
letters and requests, and visits from the citizens advice bureaux, and
it is very difficult to understand why I have received no letters about
this issue, no requests for a meeting, and no statements from the CAB.
My elderly people’s lobby is active, not just in Stockton,
South, but throughout Teesside, so I am staggered that Opposition
Members have received so many letters and addressed so many concerns
when I have not. I know that my group is a very active one.
If I were to
say anything at all that was positive, it is that the officers from the
DWP office are incredibly good at ensuring that my constituents
understand what the regulations are and how they can claim. They are
proactive in ensuring that they claim the maximum.
If I were to
make one statement that my elderly constituents make consistently, it
is that they have never been as well off. It was 18 months ago and it
does not relate to this morning’s discussion, but when my own
nan picked up her pension, she gave the money back to the post office
official assuming that she had been given the wrong amount. It was
£500. She had never received that amount of money from anyone.
There is an element of duplicity here and I am really sad to make that
statement to the
Committee.
Mr.
Waterson: I will draw a veil over the use of the word
“duplicity”. I note the hon. Lady’s best efforts
and those of her local pension service, but has she any evidence that
the take-up rate for pension credit is significantly higher in her
constituency?
Ms
Taylor: I will provide written evidence for the hon.
Gentleman so that he can see that what I am saying today is
substantiated. Finally,
no pamphlet, however brilliant, is totally adequate. We all know that.
We can say these things over and again. Many of our elderly are very
proud. Many will say to me, “I do not want to claim that
benefit, thank you very much. I am independent.” We must respect
that. I will watch how these regulations are enforced and administered.
I am confident that they will be valuable to my elderly constituents if
they speed up the whole process and ensure that people are not waiting
and wondering whether they will receive anything. I think that they
will be pleased when these regulations come into
force. 10.2
am Miss
Julie Kirkbride (Bromsgrove) (Con): May I join in the
plaudits that have already been paid to your chairmanship,
Mr. Bercow? It is nice to see a fellow traveller from the
class of 1997 doing so well and being so respected in the
House. I
was on the original Delegated Legislation Committee for these
regulations, but I seem to have been missed off the rescheduled 8.55 am
version. I am still allowed to speak and I would like to say how
strongly I agree with
the points that have been made by Opposition Members, including the
excellent contributions from the Front Bench. The new Minister will
have quite some difficulty in explaining and refuting many of the
excellent arguments about why the Government have got it wrong in this
case. I am sure that she will have been well briefed on how to place
her arguments, but it is hard to see how this can be reconciled with
the Government’s desire to increase the take-up of pension
credit, which is pitifully low compared with their initial ambitions
for
it. I
shall be brief as we want to hear from the Minister. I simply want to
reiterate the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for
North-West Hampshire. The Government clearly wanted to deal with their
ballooning deficit in December last year when prudence still mattered
to them. Now, with the banking crisis and everything else that has
happened and the economic and fiscal situation being more lax, these
regulations have been taken over by events. It would be entirely
appropriate to give people on lower incomes more money if they were
eligible for it and fit the criteria for pension credit or working
families tax
credit. I
suspect that there will be something in the PBR to help pensioners with
their energy costs, which have gone up a great deal. If the Government
do that, it will be a universal benefit to all those who meet the
criteria which will be all pensioners. It will therefore go to
pensioners who are well able to afford their energy costs if they are
on the higher end of the income distribution stream. However, the
pension credit goes to people who really need the money and cannot
afford their energy bills and other things this year. I strongly urge
the Minister to think
again.
The
Chairman: Order. It is not normal practice for the Chair
to comment on the decisions of the Committee of Selection, but it is
worth noting for the record that this meeting was changed from a
previous date. The composition of the Committee was determined by the
Committee of Selection, upon whose decisions I make absolutely no
comment except to say that I do not think that the hon. Lady was missed
off as a result of some administrative or clerical error. The Committee
of Selection made its own choice, and colleagues can make their own
judgment about the merits or otherwise of that
choice. 10.5
am
The
Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Ms Rosie
Winterton): May I, too, say how pleased I am to serve
under your chairmanship, Mr. Bercow? It is a pleasure, as
always. I
agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton, South, in her
indignation at some of the comments made by Opposition Members. Through
the introduction of pension credit, the Government have been able to
lift some 900,000 pensioners out of relative poverty, which we can be
incredibly proud of. It was this Government who introduced the winter
fuel allowance, to which the hon. Member for Bromsgrove referred. I
remember, when I was first elected, seeing women in my constituency who
were receiving the cold weather payments that were in place under the
Conservative Government. It is outrageous for Members to say that this
Government have not looked after the poorest pensioners.
I was
interested to hear the hon. Member for Eastbourne say that the
Conservative party, if elected, would keep pension credit. He did not
say whether it would reverse the changes that we are introducing today.
If he wishes to put on record that it would, I invite him to do
so. I
understand that the Liberal Democrat policy is to abolish pension
credit and replace it with a universal state pension of £151 a
week.
Jenny
Willott: No, it is
not.
Ms
Winterton: Perhaps the hon. Lady would like to
intervene.
Jenny
Willott: I wish to clarify that the Liberal Democrat
policy is to introduce a citizens’ pension at the same level as
the guaranteed credit, which is £124. It would be for everybody
who has been resident for more than a certain
time.
Ms
Winterton: In which case, the most vulnerable pensioners
should be wary of any policies from the Lib Dems. At present a single
person can claim £124 a week, but on top of that they are
entitled to housing benefit averaging £60 a week and council tax
benefit averaging £14 a week, which takes the total up to
£198 a week. If the Liberal Democrats abolish pension credit and
introduce a flat rate, it will be pretty bad news for some of the most
vulnerable people in our society. If the hon. Lady wishes to say that
Liberal Democrat policy is really that the pension will be £198
a
week— Mr.
Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): No, £30, Clegg
said.
Ms
Winterton: Of course, my hon. Friend is right. It is
interesting that the sum has now risen from £30 a week, which
was rather a sad state of
affairs. As
hon. Members have said, the regulations introduce changes to the time
allowed for backdating a claim for pension credit from 12 to three
months, and to the period for which housing benefit and council tax
benefit claims by working-age customers may be backdated from 52 weeks
to six months. The regulations also extend to 13 weeks the period for
which pension credit customers can go abroad without losing their
benefit. I
shall look into whether the explanatory memorandum was clear enough,
and see whether the language can be made more consumer-friendly in
future. I know how irritating it is when such memorandums are not
clear.
Mr.
Waterson: I cannot speak for the hon. Member for Cardiff,
Central, but my main beef is that explanatory memorandums are meant to
be factual and informative to Committee members. Today’s appears
to contain a certain element of spin, which I thought had been scrapped
by the Government.
Ms
Winterton: I thought I was being rather helpful, but there
we
are. Several
hon. Members seem to feel that the regulations have been sneaked
through, but my predecessor, who is now the Minister of State,
Department of Energy and Climate Change, my hon. and learned Friend the
Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. O'Brien), announced the
changes on 5 December last year, as part of the annual uprating
statement. In that announcement, he also made it clear that the
reduction in backdating periods for pension credit, housing benefit and
council tax benefit would be brought in from October 2008. That is the
convention with changes to benefits. The proposals
were sent to the SSAC in April, and we received its comments in late
July. Obviously, we wanted to consider its comments and recommendations
carefully and to respond formally. That information was published on 15
September, alongside the regulations, which were subject to the
negative resolution procedure under the primary legislation. Moving the
date on which the regulations came into force would have undermined the
efforts that we were making to advertise the changes taking place. That
would have caused confusion to customers at a time when we wanted to
send a clear
message.
Jenny
Willott: Regardless of whether the changes were announced
in December, it is unusual, is it not, that hon. Members did not have
the opportunity to see the regulations and discuss them, or even to
request such a discussion, before they came
in?
Ms
Winterton: We are discussing them
now.
Jenny
Willott: After they came into
place.
Ms
Winterton: But they went through the negative resolution
procedure, in line with the legislation. I am not sure whether the hon.
Lady had an Opposition day debate or a debate in Westminster
Hall—the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham said that he
might have contributed to one—but it would help me to know
whether such a debate took place. Having come to my present post only
six weeks ago, I cannot remember.
I do know,
however, that my predecessor announced the changes in December, and
that he wrote to all Members in February to remind them of the changes
and timings. The letter also reminded them of the need to advise
pensioners about the changes and encourage them to claim benefits, in
the way that the hon. Gentleman mentioned. Perhaps he passed the letter
on to his older persons group. If the hon. Lady had wanted to hold a
debate on the issue at that point, it was open to her to do
so. There
was also national and regional press coverage, supported by more than
100,000 targeted mailings to pensioners, encouraging them to claim. I
know that the hon. Gentleman is slightly worried about the use of
leaflets, but I find, in my constituency work, that they are a good
source of information. He is right to say that we should make sure that
there is also personal contact. Our local Pension Service makes about
13,000 visits a week in order to have face-to-face contact.
We had
informal discussions with Age Concern and Help the Aged, and I am sure
they briefed the hon. Lady. There were many opportunities for her to
raise the issue. I held discussions this week with Age Concern and Help
the Aged. I am aware of their concerns, and we have agreed to work
together to ensure that we do more to encourage people to take up
pension
credit. Mr.
Gordon Marsden (Blackpool, South) (Lab): My right hon.
Friend is spelling out clearly the process that has taken place, and I
particularly welcome her continuing discussions with Age Concern and
other bodies. This,
as Opposition Members admitted, is part of a broader process of
simplifying the claims and speeding up the claims process. Will there
be mechanisms, therefore, within my right hon. Friend’s
Department to review the implications not only of these narrowly based
changes, but of the whole process over the next 12 to 24 months? Can
she assure me that organisations such as Age Concern and Citizens
Advice will be closely involved in that
process?
Ms
Winterton: There are two points there. My hon. Friend is
right that we should keep in close contact with organisations such as
Help the Aged and Age Concern, which will shortly become one
organisation, to ensure that when the changes take place, people are
aware of them and are encouraged to claim benefits as quickly as
possible. The point about the working age changes is that they will be
reviewed in 2009. We responded to the Committee on that by saying that
instead of reducing the backdating to three months, we would reduce it
to six and review it in
2009. My
hon. Friend was right that this is a range of measures. The changes are
part of a package that we agreed with Age Concern and Help the Aged to
bring in other beneficial measures that they were keen to see, such as
enabling housing and council tax benefit to be dealt with entirely by
phone. As part of that package, we have made pensioners’ claims
for housing and council tax benefit more automatic. Customers will be
able to claim those benefits alongside pension credit by calling just
one number, and that will benefit an estimated 50,000 pensioners over
the next two
years. Linda
Gilroy (Plymouth, Sutton) (Lab/Co-op): I, too, have an
active senior citizens forum in Plymouth, and I know from them and from
other constituents that one of the difficulties with claiming pension
credit and other benefits is the intrusion into people’s
circumstances. Does the Minister hope that the streamlining will result
in less intrusion, and therefore perhaps better
take-up?
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