The
Committee consisted of the following
Members:
Cunningham,
Tony
(Workington)
(Lab)
Davies,
Mr. Quentin
(Grantham and Stamford)
(Lab)
Dorries,
Mrs. Nadine
(Mid-Bedfordshire)
(Con)
Fitzpatrick,
Jim
(Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for
Transport)
Goodwill,
Mr. Robert
(Scarborough and Whitby)
(Con)
Holloway,
Mr. Adam
(Gravesham)
(Con)
Kramer,
Susan
(Richmond Park)
(LD)
Leech,
Mr. John
(Manchester, Withington)
(LD)
Moffat,
Anne
(East Lothian)
(Lab)
Southworth,
Helen
(Warrington, South)
(Lab)
Stringer,
Graham
(Manchester, Blackley)
(Lab)
Touhig,
Mr. Don
(Islwyn)
(Lab/Co-op)
Wright,
Jeremy
(Rugby and Kenilworth)
(Con)
Chris Shaw, Celia Blacklock,
Committee
Clerks
attended
the Committee
The following also
attended, pursuant to Standing Order No.
119(5):
Goodman,
Helen
(Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
European
Standing
Committee
Tuesday 20
November
2007
[John
Bercow
in the
Chair]
Emissions from Road Transport and Inland Waterways
4.30
pm
The
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Jim
Fitzpatrick):
It is a pleasure, Mr. Bercow, to
see you in the Chair. I do not believe that I have served under you
before, so it is a double
pleasure.
The draft
directive amends two existing directives on the quality of petrol and
diesel fuel and on the specifications of other fuels such as heating
oil and marine fuels. Most of the amendments have not been
controversial, but one amendment to the fuel quality directive has
been. It introduces a new provision, setting a target for annual
reductions in greenhouse gas emissions from road transport
fuels.
The Government
fully support the principle behind that amendment. We are strongly
committed to reducing greenhouse gas emissions from all forms of
transport, and we are promoting biofuels as a way of doing so. The
purpose of the renewable transport fuel obligation is to secure for
biofuels a 5 per cent. share by volume of the UK market by 2010-11.
Earlier this month, the House approved the order creating the Renewable
Fuels Agency, which will administer the RTFO. From the outset of the
RTFO, fuel suppliers will be required to report on the greenhouse gas
savings and sustainability characteristics of their biofuels.
We announced in June our aim
that from 2010-11 the RTFO should be based on carbon savings,
and that from 2011-12 it should incorporate mandatory
requirements on sustainability. We place great importance on the
sustainability of biofuels, so we have serious concerns about the
Commission's proposal for a greenhouse gas reduction target. In our
view, it could create a demand for biofuels that might not be
sustainably produced. The target would require a 10 per cent reduction
in greenhouse gas emissions from road transport fuel over the 10 years
from 2010 to 2020. Those emissions would be measured over the life
cycle of the fuel, from production to
combustion.
In
principle, many things could be done to help to meet that target,
including reductions in flaring at oil wells, efficiency improvements
at refineries, the capture and storage of carbon dioxide, and the use
of alternative fuels such as liquefied petroleum gas or hydrogen.
However, it is clear that the biggest proportion of the savings must be
achieved through biofuels. The spring European Council agreed to a
target of a 10 per cent. share for biofuels in petrol and diesel
consumption by 2020. In the absence of any figures from the Commission,
we have estimated what share of biofuels would be needed to meet the
proposed greenhouse gas reduction target in 2020. Our conclusion is
that it could be as much as twice the
European Council target, so there is a significant inconsistency between
the greenhouse gas target and the biofuels target.
In proposing the biofuels
target, the European Council was not certain that that could be
achieved entirely through sustainable production, so it stipulated that
the binding nature of the target should be dependent on the
sustainability of the biofuels and on the commercial availability of
second generation biofuels. It also said that the biofuels should be
introduced cost efficiently. None of those conditions applies to the
proposed greenhouse gas reduction target. As drafted, therefore, it
could place fuel suppliers under an unacceptable legal obligation,
achievable only by expanding biofuel production beyond sustainable
limits. In our view, more evidence is needed of the implications of a
greenhouse gas reduction target before a particular value can be set.
We proposed postponing its introduction meanwhile, but in our
negotiations in the Council of Ministers, it has been clear that most
member states support the Commission in wanting to include a greenhouse
gas reduction target in the fuel quality directive.
At the Environment Council on
30 October, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for
Environment, Food and Rural Affairs indicated that the UK would
consider adopting such a target in the directive, in keeping with a
vision for decarbonising road transport fuels, so long as the target
met the conditions on which we have always insisted: it should be
compatible with the spring European Council biofuels target and it
should be underpinned by robust and comprehensive
sustainability criteria and methodologies for
assessment of greenhouse gas reductions. We aim to continue negotiating
on that basis, seeking to achieve an outcome that will deliver high
greenhouse gas savings without disproportionate costs. That is
reflected in the motion before the
Committee.
The
Chairman:
We now have until half-past 5 for questions to
the Minister. I remind hon. Members that questions should be brief and
asked one at a time. There is likely to be ample opportunity for all
Members to ask several questions if they so
wish.
Mr.
Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby)
(Con): It is a great pleasure to serve under your
chairmanship, Mr.
Bercow.
The Minister
talked at some length about the sustainability of sources of biofuels.
I assume that, in the main, he is talking about their environmental
sustainability. What assessment has been made of their economic
sustainability, given recent changes in the market for grains and
oilseeds? Also, what will be their social sustainability, given the
impact that there may be on developing
countries?
Jim
Fitzpatrick:
In the partial regulatory impact assessment
that was published in the Committees documents for today, there
is a table on page 215 that outlines the costs, both economic and
environmental, of the various options that were before the European
Scrutiny Committee. We have always said that it is not an exact
science, and that was reflected last month in the deliberations in the
Delegated Legislation Committee on the draft Renewable Transport Fuel
Obligations Order 2007. There have been fluctuations because of
the developing nature of the methodology. For example, we initially
assessed that, if biofuels had a 5 per cent. share by volume of the
market, there would be a saving of up to 1 million tonnes of carbon. We
reduced that figure to 700,000 tonnes and then possibly even 600,000
tonnes. The table gives the various costs and assessments of the
options that were considered by the European Scrutiny
Committee.
Mr.
John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): May I add my
congratulations on your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr.
Bercow?
The Commission
has said that it will not decide the detailed
methodology for evaluating life-cycle greenhouse gas until after the
proposals have been approved. Does the Minister believe that life-cycle
greenhouse gas will include potential increases in carbon emissions as
a result of the use of non-sustainable sources of
biofuels?
Jim
Fitzpatrick:
Our position has been that, as I have just
said to the hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby, the calculations
will have to be adjusted during the development of the science, as we
move from 2.5 per cent. to 5 per cent. biofuel share in the UK by 2010.
Such matters will have to be taken into account. Perhaps if the hon.
Gentleman could elaborate a little more on his question, I might be
able to give a more precise
answer.
Mr.
Goodwill:
The Minister drew my attention to the table on
page 215, which shows the economic costs to be between £667
million and £1,362 million. Is that quite wide
discrepancyI assume that the Chancellor has not been helping
the Minister with the figuresdue to a degree of estimation, or
to the fact that we do not know whether grain is going to be £80
a tonne or £180 a tonne in the long
term?
Jim
Fitzpatrick:
As the hon. Gentleman describes, there are a
number of variables in the calculations. As is alluded to elsewhere in
the document, there are even different assessments of the energy value
of a biofuel, its ability to perform and, depending on which source it
comes from, how powerful it will be. The table outlines the five
options that the Committee considered. The UKs position is that
we do not accept any of the options; we are travelling somewhere option
2 and option 3c. Our position, as I outlined in my opening remarks, is
that because we do not believe that the 10 per cent. volume, which will
require 20 per cent. biofuels by 2020, would necessarily be sourced
from sustainable outlets, the figures are open to flux. A number of
factors are involved and will lead to differing conclusions being
arrived at. As the hon. Gentleman outlined, price is one of those
factors.
Mr.
Leech:
I shall try to expand on my previous question. Does
the Minister accept that if the methodology used by the Commission were
to include carbon emissions created by the use of biofuels in
non-sustainable areas, it could be a good way in which to stop the use
of those non-sustainable
biofuels?
Jim
Fitzpatrick:
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for
amplifying his question. We agree absolutely that the calculation must
be transparent to ensure that the sustainability of the source can be
verified. The methodology needs to address the whole carbon
impact of the biofuels. We are working with the Commission and other
member states on that matter, and have given our view on robustness and
the methodology that needs to be outlined. I agree entirely, however,
that the methodology must be agreed, otherwise we will be unable to
determine the validity and sustainability of the sources, which as I
explained in my opening comments could cause more damage to the planet,
despite the fact that, some 18 months ago, biofuels were meant to be
the saving of the plant. Now they are causing great concern, as was
alluded to by the Prime Minister in his speech on the environment on
Monday this
week.
Mr.
Goodwill:
I would like to ask about petrol vapour
pressure. I have had a number of meetings over the years with the
Spanish oil industry, which has problems with the temperature in its
country and with the crude oil that it has to use to produce that fuel.
What assumptions have the UK Government made about the sourcing of
crude oil and the effect that that would have? I am sure that the
Minister is aware that it is easier to make low-vapour pressure fuel
from the heavier oils in the North sea than from some of the Saudi
light oils, which have caused the Spanish such problems, and even
raised problems at 5 per cent. ethanol
inclusion.
Jim
Fitzpatrick:
I am sorry, but I am unable to answer that
question now. If the hon. Gentleman will allow me, I shall come back to
it in my closing remarks and try to give him an answer that will
satisfy his
curiosity.
Mr.
Leech:
On petrol vapour pressure limits, will the Minister
indicate how much it will cost to introduce that one element of the
proposal, and would that cost be a one-off, or
ongoing?
Jim
Fitzpatrick:
We are hoping that there will not be
any change to the UKs position on our standard for vapour
pressure, which I think is 70 kPa. Notwithstanding the fact that the
Commission has suggested that there should be a 60 kPa limit with an
eight point tolerance, we are quite confident that we can maintain the
UKs vapour pressure limits and, therefore, we do not anticipate
that there will be any need for the UK to make any
adjustments.
Graham
Stringer (Manchester, Blackley) (Lab): I am sure that you
are aware, Mr. Bercow, as many will be, of the problems
caused by lead tetraethyl in petrol, which was invented by the same man
who nearly damaged the ozone layer with fluorinated hydrocarbon. I am
very worried, therefore, having read paragraph 4.12 on page 173 of the
document, that there appears to be a certain amount of complacency
about putting metallic additives into transport fuels. I might, of
course, have misunderstood, but I would be grateful if the Minister
could enlighten us and reassure us that we will not get another lead
tetraethyl
problem.
Jim
Fitzpatrick:
I can assure my hon. Friend fully that there
is no complacency within Government when it comes to the health of the
nation and protecting the public against contaminants from any source.
As far as we are concerned, given the negotiations that we have been
involved in with the rest of Europe, the fuel
quality directive will allow us to protect the British public fully.
There is no great risk. That is born not of complacency, but of a
confidence that we are doing all that we
can.
Mr.
Goodwill:
I am sure that the Minister is aware that vapour
pressure and fuel volatilisation are mainly a problem when vehicles are
being refuelled. What assessment has been made of alternative
approaches, such as a vapour capture system for when vehicles are
refuelled? Of course, such an example might require a commonality
between the types of fuelling ports on vehicles. Has any assessment
been made of such an approach? It would seem a fairly sensible line of
attack to take as an alternative to the
proposal.
Jim
Fitzpatrick:
As I explained to the hon. Member for
Manchester, Withington, we are relatively confident that there will be
no need to make any adjustment. Notwithstanding that, the Commission
has proposed that there ought to be a stage two vapour recovery
process. The explanatory memorandum from the Commission says that it
intends to come forward with a proposal for stage two vapour recovery
at fuel filling stations. It says that that would more than offset any
increase in evaporative emissions due to the ethanol vapour pressure
waiver in the proposal. Requirements for stage two vapour recovery do
not form part of the proposal before the Committee. They would be
subject to a separate proposal in due course.
The Department for Environment,
Food and Rural Affairs has the policy lead for our Government on the
issue. I understand that it is introducing national requirements for
stage two vapour recovery at larger fuelling stations. It would need to
consider in detail the proportionality of any EU proposal that extended
those requirements to smaller fuelling stations. The Commission is
working on that matter, with DEFRA leading on it, and we have not
reached a
conclusion.
Graham
Stringer:
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his previous
reply. Personally, I am not a great advocate of the precautionary
principle. Let me take my hon. Friend back to the second paragraph in
4.12, which I find rather
worrying:
The
Commission will continue developing the test protocol. In parallel, the
relevant industries need to provide information to their customers that
should enable them to avoid any undesirable
impacts.
The
words
should enable
them to avoid
do not seem as
reassuring as the Ministers words. The idea seems to be at odds
with the way in which the European Union, via the Commission and the
Parliament, normally treats potentially hazardous chemicals. It is
certainly not the way that it treated phthalates, which are
plasticisers in PVC. I would be grateful if the Minister could expand
on that. I, for one, do not want to see metals thrown willy-nilly into
the atmosphere without knowing what the impact will
be.
Jim
Fitzpatrick:
As it says in the paragraph above the one to
which my hon. Friend
refers:
Despite
these concerns, it does not appear to be possible to state with
certainty that metallic additives cause damage. To improve
understanding, it was considered desirable to establish a test protocol
to determine their effect.
That will clearly have to be done so that
reassurance is given to member states and to colleagues such as my hon.
Friend to ensure that there is no public concern about
health.
Mr.
Goodwill:
I am sure that the Minister will recall some of
the problems that were experienced by owners of older
vehicles when lead was taken out of fuel. Has he made any assessment of
likely problems in cars fitted with carburettors rather than modern
fuel injection systems? Could that lead to problems with vapour lock in
fuel lines during hot summer conditions?
Jim
Fitzpatrick:
Such assessments have been made. As far as I
am aware, the appropriate adjustments and recommendations for vehicles
have been advised. There is therefore no inherent threat to the
performance of vehicles in respect of these
fuels.
Mr.
Goodwill:
Has the Minister taken any account in his
deliberations of the balance to be struck between point pollution, such
as that caused by a tractor operating in a field and producing sulphur
dioxide, and more diffuse pollution, such as that caused by a ship in
the middle of the ocean that would be burning the sulphur that had been
removed from red diesel? Obviously, the sulphur is not taken out of the
system altogether, but is left in the heavy bunker fuel. Has there been
consideration of how the displacement of pollution through such
measures could have an impact on other parts of the world, particularly
coastal
areas?
Jim
Fitzpatrick:
As the hon. Gentleman knows, farm machinery
is not a significant source of the pollutant gas sulphur dioxide. The
purpose of removing sulphur from gas oil is not to reduce sulphur
dioxide emissions, but to enable the use of catalysts on farm machinery
engines to control emissions of particulate matter and oxides of
nitrogen. Those catalysts would be damaged by the sulphur in gas oil,
hence there is a proposal to reduce it. A study has been carried out to
ensure that that is the case.
Mr.
Goodwill:
This is my last question. What negotiations has
the Minister had with his European opposite numbers to build a
coalition behind the UKs position? He might recall how
unsuccessful we were in securing the continued derogation for marine
fuel, and I wonder whether it will be dÃ(c)jà vu all over
again in this case, too.
Jim
Fitzpatrick:
I could say, None, and sit
down, because I have not had any discussions with my opposite numbers,
but I assure the hon. Gentleman that, as I outlined in my opening
statement, we clearly stated our position at the
European Council in the spring. The Secretary of State for Environment,
Food and Rural Affairs outlined our reservations at the Council most
recently, and we are relatively confident that we will reach a position
that is acceptable to us in due course. The disagreement between the
Commission and ourselves about the calculations and the variables
suggests that it wants to set a stretching and ambitious target with
which we would not necessarily agree. However, it might not necessarily
expect us to attain that target, which is 20 per cent. It might look
for 14 or 15 per cent., which, given that our preference would be 10
per cent., is somewhere between the two. We are confident about
our negotiating posture. We are in direct contact with like-minded
member states, as we are on all European issues, and we are as
confident as we can be about a successful outcome to those
deliberations.
Graham
Stringer:
I am sure that it will surprise my
hon. Friend to hear that I have not had time to read,
absorb and understand the whole document. Will he tell me whether I am
right or wrong to think that the directives objective is to
reduce carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases? On a quick reading of
the document, I am worried that it implies an increase in nitrogen
dioxide, in other NOx gases, and, potentially, in sulphur dioxide. Is
that an accurate reading, or will greenhouse gases, NOx gases and
sulphur dioxide be reduced?
Jim
Fitzpatrick:
With most of these matters, as was noted in
our discussions when we passed the RTFO last month, there might well be
consequences. Our success in controlling greenhouse gas emissions, and
carbon dioxide in particular, might have a minor knock-on effect
through the increase of other gases. Given that carbon dioxide is
perceived to be the main driver of climate change, it is our main
focus. That does not mean that we are not looking to control other
sources of contamination and other emissionsthey are certainly
being looked at. There might be small increases in the emissions that
my hon. Friend mentions, but we are confident about the overall impact
of the RTFO and our position on the fuel quality directive, through
which we are trying to ensure that sustainable biofuels lead to a
reduction in carbon and are derived from a sustainable source. Carbon
dioxide is our most important focus at this
time.
Graham
Stringer:
I am glad that I have a general understanding of
the directive, but that answer is quite worrying, because in parts of
the United Kingdom, including parts of London, NOx levels are above
those set out in European directivesthey are stopping
directives. Can my hon. Friend assure me that there has been
consideration of the impact that this directive and proposal will have
on areas where the air quality is already below the EU
standard?
Jim
Fitzpatrick:
I can certainly assure my hon. Friend that
the Government intend to ensure that the air that we breathe is as pure
as possible. As for London, he will know that the Mayor of London has
high standards to which he expects transport, in particular, to adhere,
thereby ensuring that the problem of gases in some hot spots being
above the levels in other parts of the country and elsewhere is
actually addressed and
attacked.
In reply to
the specific question that my hon. Friend asked a moment ago, the
potential increase in the emissions of sulphur dioxide and NOx gases
would be very small, according to present scientific estimates. The
proposal will not increase SO2 emissions, but will result in
a small reduction. For NOx, the situation might indeed be the reverse,
but I assure him that research is ongoing and that the matter is very
much under the microscope, if he will excuse the pun. We certainly do
not wish to take our eye off one contaminant simply because, in our
view, we are making good progress against the main threat to the
planet, which is carbon
dioxide.
The
Chairman:
If no more Members wish to ask questions, we
will proceed to the debate on the
motion.
Motion
made, and Question proposed,
That the Committee takes note
of European Union Document No. 6145/07 and Addenda 1 and 2, draft
Directive amending Directive 98/70/EC as regards the specification of
petrol, diesel and gas-oil and introducing a mechanism to monitor and
reduce greenhouse gas emissions from the use of road transport fuels,
and amending Council Directive 1999/32/EC as regards the specifications
of fuel used by inland waterway vessels and repealing Directive
93/12/EEC; and endorses the Government's aim of ensuring that the
measure is cost effective, and that the target for reduction of
greenhouse gas emissions does not lead to the use of unsustainably
produced biofuels and is consistent with the biofuels target for 2020
endorsed in the Spring Council Declaration.[Jim
Fitzpatrick.]
4.57
pm
Mr.
Goodwill:
We have made remarkable progress over the past
20 or 30 years in improving the quality of our country and also the
performance of our vehicles. The Minister just mentioned the problems
in inner London. He may be surprised to know that on the hottest, most
polluted day of summer, a petrol car with its catalytic converter at
operating temperature actually cleans the air, but of course that does
not detract from the major problem facing us, which, as he mentioned,
is CO
2, and while the motor industry is able to build cars
with increasingly lower CO
2 outputs, the real challenge is
to persuade consumers to buy those cars and to leave their gas
guzzlers.
Tremendous
progress in the reduction of SO2 has been made, largely by
the fuel industry and the oil refiners who have managed to remove
sulphur from fuel. Of course, that had an energy cost. I am pleased to
note in the proposal that the industry is looking at year-on-year
efficiency improvements at oil refinery
level.
We must not
forget that the sulphur that is removed from petrol, diesel and other
refined oils ends up ultimately in the bunker fuel that is used in
shipping. Much of that fuel is up to 5 per cent. sulphur, and that
poses problems where shipping comes into close contact with the
shoreline. There are some agreements in respect of MARPOL annex VI
areas in the North and Baltic seas and the English channel, but they do
not altogether obviate the
problem.
The
hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley mentioned NOx. The fact that we
have removed sulphur from fuel means that the advanced catalytic
converters and selective catalytic reduction systems fitted to many
diesel trucks can now operate without being gummed up with either
particulates or sulphur. In addition, of course, as we heard, lead and
other heavy metals have been removed from
fuel.
I
remember a conversation that I had with Dr. Caroline
Jackson, who chaired the European Parliament Environment Committee. I
had the privilege of serving on that Committee for five years. She said
that in her first meeting with the motor industry on the subject, she
was told that it was not practically possible to produce a car engine
that did not need lead in the fuel. We have moved a long way from
there, and it is all credit to the motor industry and to the oil
companies that every time we set them a challenge, they respond to it
and develop the technology.
The problem that we now face is
the law of diminishing returns. For every pound or euro we spend trying
to improve the atmosphere and performance, we get an ever smaller
return. Perhaps the proposals that the Minister has put forward today
are a recognition of the fact that some of the objectives that have
been laudably laid down might not be as economically attainable as we
would like. I was involved with vapour pressure limits in the European
Parliament. We raised those concerns at that time, but all too often at
Council level it is a case of the emperors new clothes
almostno one wants to step out of line and say, This is
not sensibly attainable. All too often, we are signed up to
directives and regulations that we know full well we cannot meet, as
with fridges and the ozone-depleting substances regulations. The UK
must have known that we could not meet those requirements, but we
signed up all the same so that we could not be criticised for not being
green.
The problem of
vapour pressure limits is not only an issue in relation to ethanol
being added to fuel. It will also emerge as an issue as our North sea
oil supplies dry up and we return to lighter crudes from around the
world. We support the UK Government in their wish to maintain the 70
kPa limit and not to have too great a pressure at the pumps, which
makes a lot of practical sense. We must also consider more seriously
the alternative approach of vapour capture, which would mean that there
was less concern about the vapour pressure of the fuel as that vapour
could be captured at refuelling, which is the only time at which it
becomes an issue.
On
gas oil and the issues relating to non-road mobile machinery, I was a
shadow rapporteur on the directive, which was first taken through
European Parliament by Heidi Hautala for the Greens and then taken up
by Alexander de Roo. The fact that the Greens took the lead on the
issue indicates where some of the problems arose. For very good and
ambitious reasons in terms of the future of the planet, they perhaps
pushed the Council further than it wished. We have now made a rod for
our own back and are having to come up with practical ways in which to
address the problem.
From a
practical point of view, it would make sense to have one grade of red
diesel for non-road mobile machinery, rail and inland waterways. The
practicalities regarding having separate delivery systems and storage
make a lot of sense, as one can read in the document. We also need to
analyse the impact on the quality of vehicles operating in close
proximity to the public or workers, as opposed to vehicles, such as
tractors, that usually are not in close proximity to people and are
concentrated in areas that we might be able to prioritise with less
emphasis. It is important that vehicles that operate in towns and
cities are as clean as possible; that should be where the emphasis
is.
On
the renewable transport fuel obligation and biofuels,
I think that we started this journey without having a clear
destination, and we need to reconsider the long-term sustainability of
the strategy from an economic point of view. The point was made in
Committee the other day that, for biofuels to have a 5 per cent. share
of the market in this country, we would need between 1.2 and 1.9
million hectares of UK land to be turned over to
biofuel production. It will have economic impacts on developing
countries in which food supplies are short. We are used to putting our
hands into our pockets when there is a famine in Africa, and we expect
grain to be available, but if we put it into our Range Rover fuel
tanks, it will not be available, so there will be social implications
around the world.
We
know about the environmental implications of biofuels. I declare an
interest in the matter as a biofuel producer on my farm. It is only 50
per cent. carbon efficient, and some other biofuels are even less
carbon efficient. A lot depends on what other factors are brought into
the equation, as that figure is based purely on the production costs.
If we start looking at what the additional tractor drivers who are
employed do with their wages and whether they go on foreign holidays,
and if we consider the whole issue of deforestation and habitats in the
far east and countries such as Brazil, we have to take some enlightened
decisions. It is all very well for us to say that we will source our
biofuels only from sustainable sources if that displaces foodstuffs
that are produced from unsustainable sources. In the European
Parliament, we often found that the environmental ambitions of MEPs
exceeded the practical and economic realities. We must consider
carefully how much bang we get for every buck we invest in a cleaner
environment. At worst, we could push some of the dirty practices abroad
as we make our industries less
economic.
We must
consider the law of diminishing returns, and the point at which the
additional environmental improvements do not justify the cost. We must
also consider point pollution against diffuse pollution, and I referred
to shipping. We can take the sulphur out of red diesel, which is used
in tractors and construction equipment, but that sulphur will be burned
on a ship somewhere. It might not have an impact on Scandinavian
forests, but it will have an impact on the acidification of our
oceans. We need clear environmental measurements and to view each
initiative in isolation. We must read across different proposals from
the Commission to decide where our priorities should lie. I hope that
the Minister is more successful in this case than he was on the marine
fuel extension to our derogation, and I wish him luck in his
negotiations in
Brussels.
All too
often, we hear about what has been going on in the Council in
conciliation meetings and in hammering things out. Having served on
more of these Committees than I care to think about, one of my great
disappointments is that all too often in the Council of Ministers we
are not represented by Ministers. If some of the decisions had had more
political input and practicality than elected members can provide, we
might have had slightly better agreements that would have been more
realistic and practical to implement, or perhaps the Ministers who make
the decisions realise that they will not be in place when the birds
come home to
roost.
5.7
pm
Mr.
Leech:
I do not intend to make a long
speech, but the raging debate about the use of biofuels will no doubt
continue for a long time, and there are some legitimate concerns about
the sustainable and other sourcing of biofuels. We believe that the
Governments
amended proposals will avoid an increase in biofuels from
non-sustainable sources, but there is potential for other Governments
to meet EU targets. Notwithstanding the legitimate concerns raised by
the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley, we shall support the
Government.
5.8
pm
Jim
Fitzpatrick:
May I express my appreciation for the
comments of the hon. Gentleman who is speaking for the Liberal
Democrats?
The hon.
Member for Scarborough and Whitby demonstrates his considerable
expertise in this area from his time as a Member of the European
Parliament and in farming. He alluded to the cost of the exercise, but
we have never said that saving the planet would be cost free. We have
always said that there may be a
cost.
There is a
genuine question about the estimated success of
biofuels and the range of carbon savings that have been alluded to.
Last week, I had a meeting with some of my officials and people from
McDonalds, who are converting their UK fleet to use biofuels.
They have a successful delivery agent, and they are proud of what they
have done. They are recycling their cooking fat to power their vehicles
almost entirely, with only a little virgin fuel. We asked what the
energy comparison was between what they used to use and what they use
now. Some of the Departments estimates suggest that there could
be a 10 per cent. loss in energy when using biofuel instead of
conventional fuel, but McDonalds is saying that the loss is
only 1 per cent. Obviously, these are early days, but that demonstrates
that there is a lot of science to be undertaken in order to validate
accurately exactly where we will end up. However, we are confident
about the core issue, which is on the direction of
travel.
Mr.
Goodwill:
The Minister is right that McDonalds is
at the cutting edge of that technology. I am sure that he is aware,
however, that the only reason that such waste cooking oil is now
available as a fuel is that the animal by-products directive obviated
its use as an animal feed, which has a very high-value use, and so a
positive value. The problem at the moment is that waste cooking oil has
a negative value and many restaurants and other outlets will throw it
down the drain, rather than pay to have it taken
away.
Jim
Fitzpatrick:
I accept the point that the hon. Gentleman is
making. I was trying to identify and use as an example the variables in
the calculations for end products. Indeed, McDonalds made the
same point he did a moment ago.
The hon. Gentleman raised the
question of bunker fuel in shipping. I am sure that he is aware that
the UK is pushing for emissions from international shipping to be
resolved at an international level, in the same way that we are trying
to arrive at an international arrangement for aviation to be included
in the European emissions trading scheme. We are pushing for success
through the International Maritime
Organisation, which is in London this fortnight for its biennial
conference. That will include a reduction or limit on greenhouse gas
emissions from ships.
The hon. Gentleman asked a
question that I was unable to answer earlier about crude oil sources
affecting the ability to meet the vapour pressure limits. I am advised
that we do not anticipate any increased costs in complying with the
current limits. We have consulted with UK refiners, which have not
indicated that there is likely to be a problem with that.
The hon. Gentleman raised
another question about the sustainability of the policy generally. I
have explained that we agreed that we want to keep the sustainability
of biofuels under close review, which is why we developed the detailed
reporting methodology to address the impacts that we discussed more
fully in the RTFO Committee last month. We will ask the Renewable Fuels
Agency to report regularly to Parliament on such matters, so that the
latter can keep it under close
scrutiny.
I shall
respond to the question raised by my hon. Friend the Member for
Manchester, Blackley about lead tetraethyl and whether the Government
was being complacent. Currently, there is no widespread use of
metallic additives in the EU. Nevertheless, the Commission is
working on methods for either approving or prohibiting those additives.
That is a sensible precaution, but there is no immediate health risk
from those additives. I hope that that gives him greater reassurance
than perhaps I was able to give earlier
on.
There is no need
for me to stress the Governments commitment to dealing with
climate change, or our support for many of the measures that we have
discussed today. The sustainability of biofuels is important, and the
motion emphasises how seriously we take it. We shall continue to press
for high sustainability standards to be adopted by the EU. As the
motion indicates, we want any greenhouse gas target to be consistent
with the 2020 target for biofuels, and we expect the proposals to be
cost-effective. Only then, and with the agreement of this Committee,
will we be prepared to agree to this amending directive and to the
proposal for reducing greenhouse gas
emissions.
Question
put and agreed
to.
Resolved,
That
the Committee takes note of European Union Document No. 6145/07 and
Addenda 1 and 2, draft Directive amending Directive 98/70/EC as regards
the specification of petrol, diesel and gas-oil and introducing a
mechanism to monitor and reduce greenhouse gas emissions from the use
of road transport fuels, and amending Council Directive 1999/32/EC as
regards the specifications of fuel used by inland waterway vessels and
repealing Directive 93/12/EEC; and endorses the Government's aim of
ensuring that the measure is cost effective, and that the target for
reduction of greenhouse gas emissions does not lead to the use of
unsustainably produced biofuels and is consistent with the biofuels
target for 2020 endorsed in the Spring Council
Declaration.
Committee
rose at thirteen minutes past Five
oclock.