Paul
Goggins: The right hon. Gentleman makes his point. I was
thinking of the other solution, which he is not pressing, but there we
go. I
am pleased to see the hon. Member for South-West Norfolk present and
making a contribution this afternoon. Again, I can confirm that the
co-location of police and probation will begin from October this year,
and reassure him that resources are in place for the new public
protection arrangements. He is right to underline the importance of
focusing on the high risks, not just on spreading resources evenly
across those of varying risk, and we have the resources in place to do
that. The
impact on the prison population is another important point. Because of
the change in the framework that we have introduced and the
introduction of indeterminate and extended sentences, it is important
that we expand the number of prison places—and we are—and
that we put in place the extra capacity for running sex offender and
other necessary
programmes. Over
the next three years, we are investing £14 million extra in
running those new places and programmes. I can tell the hon. Member for
South-West Norfolk that over the next two years we will be introducing
400 new prison places in Northern Ireland, which, in relation to the
size of the Prison Service there, is a considerable investment. We want
to see the Prison Service working harder and harder at resettlement, so
as people pass through the prison system the risk of reoffending
reduces all the
time. I
have mentioned a number of points that the hon. Member for East Antrim
raised. It should not surprise him or other members of the Committee
that the number of people subject to registration as sex offenders is
going up each year. Obviously, many people go on the register for a
long time and may stay on it for life, and all the time the numbers are
being added to, so they will increase over time. That means that more
and more people are being managed and watched, and assessed and
reassessed, in exactly the right
way. The
hon. Gentleman is right to say that many offenders recognise the risk
that they pose. Part of our strategy should be to help them to manage
their risk better, and that requires good two-way communication between
the supervising officer and the individual offender. Many of them lead
chaotic lives, and part of the purpose of strict licence conditions is
to ensure that they keep to certain strict rules. If they do not, there
is a consequence, which is that they may have to go back to
prison.
On the
supervision and surveillance available, the hon. Gentleman mentioned
the case of somebody who was seen only once every three months. To be
seen once over a three-month period, that individual would have to be
at category 1—the lowest of the three levels. The requirement at
category 2 is not less than every six weeks, and for the highest level
not less than every four weeks, but it could be more if the situation
required it. One particular case springs to mind, although I will not
go into detail this afternoon, in which the supervision was extremely
intensive. We will provide what is necessary for the most risky and
dangerous to ensure that we manage effectively the risk that they
pose. The
hon. Gentleman also asked about what happens when people change their
behaviour. There is a process of reassessment within the MASRAM
arrangements, so if people become aware of new or risky behaviour, they
can be reassessed. If necessary, they can be placed in a higher
category and dealt with
accordingly. The
hon. Gentleman asked about disclosure of information. I agree: it is
sometimes important that information is disclosed, perhaps to a head
teacher or another key person in the community. Where that is felt to
be necessary, the agencies concerned will first suggest to the
individual that they self-disclose, because that would be the most
sensible way to proceed, but if they will not and the risk remains, the
authorities will take the necessary action. If the situation involves
children, we can take child protection action, and if risky behaviour
needs to be prevented, we can get a sexual offences prevention order.
It is essential that we manage the risks.
The hon.
Gentleman’s final point was an important one about rebalancing
the criminal justice system. In the time that I have been doing this
job, I have been attempting to do just that through the new legislation
and the improvements that we are trying to make to the Prison Service
and the probation service. It seems to me that, first, we have to take
victims and witnesses more seriously than perhaps we have in the past.
We now have a victims and witnesses strategy for Northern
Ireland, which I launched last year. It is well resourced and is
providing more support for those people at a vulnerable
time. Secondly,
we need a sentencing framework that means that the courts can give out
the appropriate punishment and, if necessary, send people to prison for
longer and keep them there if they pose too high a risk. Thirdly, we
also need to invest in the probation service to ensure that when people
are back in the community they have every opportunity to lead a
law-abiding life and to make a positive contribution, as opposed to
their past
offending. This
is not about being soft on offenders; it is about reducing risk,
reducing crime and ensuring that fewer people are affected by crime.
The hon. Gentleman very adequately summed up what we are all striving
to do here. There is no question but that, through the MASRAM
arrangements and the public protection arrangements, we are seeking to
ensure that all the agencies involved share information and a common
strategy to ensure that people are properly
protected. Question
put and agreed
to. Resolved, That
the Committee has considered the matter of MASRAM (multi-agency sex
offender risk assessment and management) and the management of the risk
posed by sex offenders living in the community in Northern
Ireland.
Neighbourhood
PolicingMotion
made, and Question proposed, That the Committee do now
adjourn.—[Liz
Blackman.] 6.35
pm Dr.
Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast, South) (SDLP): I very much
welcome the opportunity to debate an issue that is brought to my
doorstep and office every week; perhaps even every day. I am talking
about the demand made by good, law-abiding people for the rapid
availability of, and accessibility to, a policeman or woman when
circumstances require police protection and support. If one goes to my
constituency or anywhere in Northern Ireland, one will meet people who
think that the rapid access to, and availability of, ordinary community
policemen and women is not adequate to meet the demands placed upon
them by people breaking the law or engaging in antisocial
behaviour.
The Police
Federation
says: “Effective
policing has always been the preserve of those working closely within
the
community” that
they serve. According to all of those who know more about community
policing than I do, policing is delivered best when working in
partnership with the support of a local community. At the core of the
matter is a good neighbourhood policing strategy and policy, which
would deter those who are tempted towards crime, reassure residents and
make them feel safe in their own
homes. Policing
in Northern Ireland has undergone a tremendous transformation, but
there is a way to go before the final piece of the
jigsaw—becoming a truly community-based policing service in name
and in practice—is in
place. I
should put on the record that I believe that the Police Service of
Northern Ireland is doing an excellent job. Overall crime has fallen
compared with last year, but those statistics, good as they are, mean
little if the public do not feel safe in their homes and if they do not
feel a connection at a neighbourhood and street level to the police
officers who serve them. I have found that many elderly people in
particular cannot put enough locks on their doors to make them feel
safe. It is also important to note there is still an element of
under-reporting of crime in Northern Ireland, because people genuinely
feel that they do not want to waste police time on relatively minor
crime. I therefore suggest that the statistics may be read with a
degree of
caution. People
in their homes, on their streets and in their neighbourhoods are
plagued by antisocial activity. Sometimes, that activity gets worse. In
the Belfast, West constituency, which is adjacent to mine, the recent
deaths of Harry Holland and Bap McGreevy were a direct result of
antisocial turning to violent behaviour and eventually to murder.
Against that background, old people do not feel safe in their homes,
perhaps understandably.
People are
deeply frustrated at poor response times and the time it takes for
police to get to their homes when there is a break-in, attack or
threat.
David
Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): Does the hon. Gentleman agree
that there is a high level of frustration from the general public on
the overall budget that was
received in Northern Ireland for policing and that the reduction of the
budget meant that it was not possible to put in place community support
officers for the community policing that he
mentioned?
Dr.
McDonnell: The hon. Gentleman has, as in earlier debates,
read my mind. I will come to the points that he raised later, but I
agree with him entirely. The frustration that he referred to is
building in many cases into anger and resentment, and we should do what
we can to avoid that, because a lot of the good work that has already
been undertaken by police in difficult circumstances is being negated
as people become apathetic or think that contacting the police is a
waste of time. That is not an attitude that I want to condition.
Equally, I do not want to encourage the wasting of police time on
trivia, so we have to get the right balance in that regard.
I can only
remark on the tremendous change that has come about in my constituency
in the Markets area, which I know well and where there have been
difficulties over the years. Indeed, the transformation that has taken
place and the work that allowed it has been tremendous. That started a
number of years ago because a small team consisting of a sergeant and
eight constables were dedicated to working in what was a predominantly
nationalist area with a bit of a republican and militant reputation.
That was done at a time when there was little or no faith in or support
for the police, and even those who were well disposed towards the
police felt that discretion was the better part of valour and kept
their mouths and doors shut. Those officers set about building trust,
support and respect in that community. Ahead of and perhaps in parallel
with broader changes on the overall policing picture, they created a
situation in which there was tremendous good will and growth of
relationships. Indeed, they have even now built relationships with some
of the people who in the past would have been declared
enemies.
However, I
raised that issue this evening because I am concerned that there are
signs that that goodwill is beginning to diminish, and that is a direct
result of community police officers either not existing, or where they
do exist, being very stretched. After all that we have come through in
Northern Ireland, I do not think that we should allow that to happen.
Urgent action must be taken to enable local officers, where possible,
to be responsive to community needs. Action must be taken to ensure
extra resources at a community level, and that included man power,
women power or other resources that will ensure rapid
response.
The Patten
commission has taken policing a long way, but the next leg of the
journey for me, for many of the people I represent and many whom I do
not represent is to get the final piece of the jigsaw in place, and
that is effective neighbourhood policing. I warmly welcome the
statement that the Minister made at the end of May, in which he also
emphasised those issues. I hope that my contribution this evening
reinforces that theme and strengthens the efforts that he made at the
end of May to recognise the need for investment at a grass-roots level,
the building of trust and that that is all an essential part of a
process of making our communities safe. I believe, just like my
colleague and friend the hon. Member for Upper Bann, that central to
the whole thing is the need to have police community support officers
in place. That will go a long way towards
reassuring the people I represent and who come to my door and those who
feel insecure in their homes that something is happening. We had a
discussion earlier about sex offenders. My wife reports to me—it
makes my life a lot more difficult—that two or three times a
week, she observes people whom she suspects of having ulterior motives
lurking around a school that is less than 100 yd from where I live.
Maybe she is totally wrong, maybe it is a bit unfair or maybe it is
just a suspicion, but there are not enough police human resources to
monitor that situation, intervene or just show a presence—if
nothing else, to scare off those who might have ulterior
motives. My
friend the hon. Member for Upper Bann made the point that there is a
shortfall in the region of £100 million in the PSNI
budget bid. I would not want to see a penny wasted, never mind a pound,
but we must recognise that gap as penny-wise and pound-foolish. Some of
it has to be bridged to reinforce the tremendous progress and success
that we have had in policing and to clinch the deal and bring it all
together at street
level. Police
community support officers not only serve communities but form an
integral part of them, and they are vital to a range of community
safety strategies for dealing with antisocial behaviour and fostering
community cohesion and protection. The PCSO budget should be a defined
resource in its own right. The police should not just have an
afterthought, “If we do get some money, we’ll allocate it
there.” It should not just be part of an overall budget that is
vulnerable to somebody else raiding
it. The
delivery of a first-class policing service in Northern Ireland is
central to all the political progress that we have made, and the
further reduction of crime there is directly related to the amount of
funding that we can find and devote to the delivery of community
policing. To enable our dedicated policemen and women to do a better
job, whatever resources are available must be put into front-line
services, at community and neighbourhood level, whenever they are
available.
It is not
fair that time and again comparisons are made—even if in a
genuine effort; I am not questioning the motives involved—with
parts of the UK such as the north-east, the north-west, the midlands or
wherever. We are still in a difficult situation, and there are still
threats to policemen and women. Only last night there was a very nasty
attack on two policemen in Fermanagh. As we move through and out of the
post-conflict situation, it is not reasonable to say that we are
comparable with those areas. We still have a major security threat,
albeit from a small number of individuals.
The police
budget is too tight overall, and the vulnerable part of it is the
community and neighbourhood part. If we neglect that now, it will lead
to a penny-wise and pound-foolish strategy further down the road. It
will allow crime, antisocial behaviour and violent behaviour to grow,
and lives will be lost.
The
community end of policing is about having a local, dedicated team of
officers for a specific geographical area. Those officers should be
well equipped and trained with good communication and conflict
resolution skills at neighbourhood level, so that they can help when
kids are in trouble and being difficult, or attempt to resolve
antisocial behaviour.
Foot patrols
are essential, and we see few of them around Belfast, if any. Some
mobile units are useful, but policemen or women, or both, on bicycles
create a visible presence. Visibility is everything in making people
feeling secure. It connects the police with the community and involves
people in the community in fighting crime and taking on
responsibility. Another
issue that I want to raise is a particular problem in the south Belfast
district command area, which takes in Belfast city centre. Almost all
the available policing sources go to the city centre at weekends as
units are deployed to tackle all sorts of antisocial behaviour such as
alcohol-fuelled assaults and the whatnot that now passes for social
life on a Friday and Saturday evening. That siphons policing from the
neighbourhoods, and it is not possible to deal with break-ins on Friday
and Saturday nights. The criminals are wise to that and effectively
have a free-for-all on those two evenings. We need to do something at a
neighbourhood level to ensure that the neighbourhood is not robbed to
cover the city centre. There might be an option to create a dedicated
city centre policing service. I am sure that our brains and strategists
could consider
that. In
conclusion, I thank you again, Dr. McCrea, for the opportunity to raise
these issues. I want to make it clear that I am in favour of efficient
and effective spending of tax money. I am not saying that we should
throw good money after bad, but there is a big gap in our policing
service and people are distressed about it. The situation might not
cost lives in all cases, but it does cost lives from time to time as
violence spirals out of control. I urge the Minister to use whatever
influence he has with the Policing Board to ensure that we continue to
build on and strengthen the tremendous progress that we have made in
policing in the past couple of years. Community confidence is rising
and people want to participate in and support policing, but that will
be frustrated if we do nothing and allow nothing to
happen. 6.52
pm
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