The
Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Paul Goggins):
The total allocation for the Police Service of Northern Ireland is in
excess of £1.1 billion for each of the three years covered by
the 2007 comprehensive spending review. That is a good settlement
within a tough spending round and will support effective policing
across the whole of Northern
Ireland.
Mr.
McGrady: I thank the Minister for his reply, but does he
share my concern about the budget forecast for 2008-09, where there is
a projected shortfall of some £43 million? That should not be
laid at the door of the PSNI in terms of inefficiency or poor
management because it has already cut £14 million from its
necessary services. Will the Minister acknowledge that part of the
problem is legislation legitimately imposing additional financial
burdens on the PSNI—such as the Northern Ireland civil service
equal pay awards, the police pension reviews and the transitional
allowances reviews? On top of that, there has been an influx of damage
claims to the PSNI for things such as loss of hearing during service.
Those factors are not the fault of the PSNI and if the shortfall is not
delivered, there will be a cutback on essential front-line
services.
Paul
Goggins: It is important to recognise at the outset that
the settlement achieved for policing in Northern Ireland was a good
one. Indeed, when the Policing Board first came to the Northern Ireland
Office with a bid for funding under CSR 07, we were pretty confident
that we could meet all the demands it was asking for. Sometime later,
it revised upwards the estimate of what it needed by some £350
million. We still came within £88 million of achieving
everything for which it had
asked. In
saying that it was a good settlement, of course I recognise that
pressures build up within a particular year and over time. There will
be pressures that were unforeseen—whether they come from
legislation or through legal challenge and so on. The issues that the
hon. Gentleman raises about hearing loss and other matters must, of
course, be dealt with. The correct place for those to initially be
dealt with is within the Policing Board in close consultation with the
Chief Constable. Throughout my time in this job, I have always said
that, in the end, we must have a tripartite approach to handling police
finances and that the Northern Ireland Office should be fully engaged
in that. I can assure the Committee that we are fully engaged in trying
to deal with these issues because it is essential that the Chief
Constable can deploy his resources to protect the
public. Mr.
Nigel Dodds (Belfast, North) (DUP): I acknowledge what the
Minister has said about the context and so on for setting the PSNI
budget over the next three years. Nevertheless, does he accept that the
Chief Constable has gone on the record as saying that, if the gap in
funding is not met, that could affect front-line services and lead to a
halt in recruitment? Does he think it acceptable that there could be a
halt in the recruitment of new PSNI and other officers at a time when
the threat from dissident terrorists is growing and when many other
problems face us in relation to serious organised crime, which we will
debate
shortly?
Paul
Goggins: Of course, it is essential that the Chief
Constable can deploy resources to ensure that we deal with the threat
from dissident terrorists. I speak regularly with the Chief Constable
and know how determined he is to protect his officers, especially when
they are the main target of dissident activity. We have based the
budget that we provided to the Policing Board and the PSNI on having
7,500 regular police officers. Clearly, any decision to stop
recruitment would be a major step away from that original framework. It
is important that the Chief Constable, with the Policing Board, can
discuss all those issues candidly and that the Northern Ireland Office
is involved in those discussions. Where we can, we should take action
to help us to resolve the issues. The priority has to be to enable the
Chief Constable to do his job properly in protecting the people of
Northern
Ireland. PSNI
(Resources)4.
Mrs.
Iris Robinson (Strangford) (DUP): What steps
he plans to take to ensure that the Police Service of Northern Ireland
has sufficient resources to combat the threat from dissident republican
terrorist organisations.
[235737] The
Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Paul Goggins):
Although the recent increase in dissident activity has placed a strain
on the PSNI, the Chief Constable has been able to prioritise resources
to deal with the threat posed by dissident
republicans.
Mrs.
Robinson: In light of the Minister’s remarks to the
hon. Member for South Down and his comments about the
Government’s willingness to provide practical assistance, it is
essential that sufficient moneys be allocated to the police to allow
them to do their work on the ground. Does the Minister agree that the
shortfall of £130 million over the next three years causes the
Chief Constable great problems? Does he also agree that the lack of
sufficient resources, by which I mean the £130 million, rather
than political activity, is providing dissidents with the room to
develop and expand their
operations?
Paul
Goggins: One difficulty with these kinds of exchanges is
that the figures quoted for what the Chief Constable believes might be
needed at different times change constantly. Obviously, the budget
contains pressures as well as easements, but it is under constant
review by the Policing Board, officials in my Department and so on. We
will continue to do everything that we can to close down any gaps in
funding. Sometimes that can be done by finding more efficient ways of
doing things, but sometimes priorities must be set. The hon. Lady is
quite right that an absolute priority in Northern Ireland at the moment
is to ensure that we can withstand the attempts by dissident elements
to derail the politics and cause harm, especially to police
officers.
I visited
Lisnaskea recently and met front-line officers in an area particularly
targeted by dissidents where three officers came under severe attack.
In Newtownbutler, a short distance away, a booby trap device went off
that could have caused dreadful harm. It is important, therefore, that
those police are deployed and that they have the necessary back-up. The
Chief Constable also has at his disposal help from the intelligence
services and other specialist help, and we will do all that we can to
ensure that he can do his job in tackling the threat from those
dissident
elements. Mr.
Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): I pay tribute to
the police officers who have worked so very hard for so many years to
counter the terrible threat posed by terrorism. I find it completely
unacceptable that some organisations, and individuals within them, have
the stated aim of murdering police officers. Will the Minister confirm
that but for intelligence, excellent police work and good
fortune—it must be said—as many as two dozen police
officers could have been murdered over recent months? Does that not
fill him with a terrible feeling of foreboding, because while everybody
else in Northern Ireland is doing their utmost to move forward, some in
the Province are determined not only to derail the political process,
but to kill police officers simply because they are doing their
job?
Paul
Goggins: I warmly welcome the hon. Gentleman’s
strong words of condemnation of those who seek to carry out such
activity. He is right that there has been a combination of good work
and good fortune. I constantly ask myself whether there is anything
more that I can do, as Minister with responsibility for security, to
assist the
Chief Constable, and whether there is anything that any of us can do to
face down the threat that still exists.
What matters
is that all the politicians are now in exactly the same place in
condemning such dissident activity. We have heard this week the
strongest possible condemnation from Cardinal Sean Brady, which is very
welcome. He made it absolutely clear that there is no space for these
people in any civilised society. I believe that as the politics
progresses and confidence in the political process grows, the small
amount of oxygen that feeds dissident groups will disappear, and they
will be snuffed out and dealt
with. Dr.
William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Acknowledging the
serious threat that dissident republicans pose and the intensification
of their activity, and bearing in mind that close to where I live, in
Pomeroy, Coagh, Ballinderry and Cookstown, there seems to have been a
continuous spread in recent days of attacks on individuals and
property, what assurance can the Minister give the people of Northern
Ireland that terrorists who are seeking to bring the Province into the
path of bloodshed will be crushed, and that the people will be
protected? Will he also tell us when he expects to cut the first sod of
the new police academy in
Cookstown?
Paul
Goggins: The hon. Gentleman has not given me the
opportunity to say “Londonderry” in my answer, but I
shall say it up
front. On
the police college, which will be combined with the fire and rescue
college and prison college, the plans are being worked on even as we
speak. I hope in the very near future to unveil the next phase of that
work, and we will certainly want to involve the hon. Gentleman in
that.
The hon.
Gentleman makes the point that even in the past few days, Cookstown has
been the target of those who would seek to cause real harm to people in
his constituency. Help is immediately available from specialist
officers who can work with the Police Service of Northern Ireland to
deal with such emergency situations. Ultimately, we need people who
know who the people involved are to come forward, report their
activities to the police and be prepared to give evidence to the
courts. That is the further step that needs to happen to build
confidence. When that happens, those people can be brought to court and
to justice and sentenced to the long-term imprisonment that their
behaviour
merits. Sammy
Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): Does the Minister agree that
it is important to have not only the right financial resources in the
fight against terrorism, but the right human resources? Does he
therefore share my surprise that a constituent of mine who had served
with distinction in the Royal Irish Regiment, who had applied to join
the police and passed all the necessary tests and medical tests, was
sent a letter telling him that he was not eligible and that the police
would not accept him because he had on his shoulder a tattoo of the
Royal Irish Regiment badge, which contravened the policy of having a
neutral working environment? Will he investigate with the Chief
Constable that kind of absurd political
correctness?
Paul
Goggins: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me if
I do not comment specifically on that without knowing more about the
details. I will of course examine the case that he has raised, and I am
happy to meet him to discuss it.
Organised
Crime[Relevant
Documents: Third Report from the Northern
Ireland Affairs Committee, Session 2005-06,
on Organised Crime in Northern Ireland, HC 886-1, and the
Government’s response
thereto, HC 1642, Session
2005-06.] 4.54
pm
The
Chairman: We now move on to the main debate. I remind the
Committee that it can continue for up to two and a half hours. I give
my usual health warning that I have no power to impose a time limit on
any speaker, but I hope that those who speak will bear in mind that
others wish to speak and allow them time before the end of the
debate. 4.55
pm
The
Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Paul Goggins):
I beg to
move, That
the Committee has considered the matter of organised crime in Northern
Ireland. I
warmly welcome the debate, which provides the Committee with an
opportunity to focus on the actions that we are taking in seeking to
tackle organised crime in Northern Ireland. First, I am sure that all
members of the Committee would wish to join me in expressing gratitude
to those officers in the Police Service of Northern Ireland, the
Serious Organised Crime Agency, Her Majesty’s Revenue and
Customs and the other agencies that work on the front line of our
efforts to reduce the harm caused by organised crime. Organised
criminals are ruthless in their pursuit of money by any means, and it
takes courage and commitment to track them down, bring them before the
courts and remove their
assets. Over
the years, paramilitary groups have been involved in organised crime in
Northern Ireland, both to fund their activities and, in some cases, to
line the pockets of individual members. The move that some groups have
made away from organised crime, while highly significant, has not been
total. The 20th Independent Monitoring Commission report published last
week acknowledges that there are members and former members of
paramilitary groups who are still actively involved in organised crime,
either to fund terrorist activity or for personal gain. The report
notes that PIRA has maintained an exclusively politically path, with no
leadership sanction of any violence or crime, but the same cannot be
said for other paramilitary
groups. Mr.
Ben Wallace (Lancaster and Wyre) (Con): The Government
consistently quote the IMC report. Does the Government information, not
the IMC’s, show that PIRA has been involved in crime and
organised
crime?
Paul
Goggins: I frequently quote the IMC because it is
independent and therefore has a level of authority that people might
believe, even if they do not believe the politicians. All the
intelligence that I see, all the information that I have, is absolutely
four-square with the IMC’s findings and reports. I see nothing
that is inconsistent with
them. The
IMC reports that dissident republicans are involved in a range of
organised crime, including drug dealing, armed robbery, fuel laundering
and smuggling, tobacco and alcohol smuggling, tiger kidnapping and
extortion. Loyalist paramilitaries are also involved in organised
crime, including for personal gain. The range of their
criminal activity includes drug dealing, extortion, money laundering,
loan sharking and the sale of counterfeit
goods. On
top of the locally organised criminality, Northern Ireland is not
immune to the effects of global organised crime, which are also seen
elsewhere in the United Kingdom and in the Republic of Ireland. Global
criminal networks have introduced the relatively new phenomenon of
cannabis factories, the horror that is human trafficking for sexual and
labour exploitation, and a rise in internet-based crime and financial
fraud, which can be organised by criminals in any part of the world who
have access to a
PC. Organised
crime takes many forms, and is constantly changing to evade the law and
exploit new opportunities and technological advances. Therefore, our
response must be firm and robust. The Northern Ireland Office
established the Organised Crime Task Force in 2000, with the objective
of developing a strong partnership between law enforcement and other
agencies and organisations from the public and private sectors to work
together to defeat organised crime.
The OCTF,
which I chair, provides strategic direction and a forum for the
Government to engage directly with the enforcement agencies and the
business community to agree priorities, share information and work
together. The OCTF is becoming increasingly successful as those
partnerships deepen and translate into effective enforcement, as I have
seen in my time as Minister with responsibility for security in
Northern Ireland. Those strategic relationships are now becoming
effective at the operational as well as the policy level, and we are
beginning to see the
pay-off. Today,
Belfast is hosting the Association of Chief Police Officers drugs
conference. The most recent OCTF assessments indicate an increased
threat from drugs, particularly class A drugs, including cocaine. Her
Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has seen an increase in the number
of people attempting to smuggle cocaine into Northern Ireland by
ingesting small packages of the drug. In June, for example, a man
arriving in Northern Ireland was found to have ingested 1 kilo of
cocaine, which forensic tests later confirmed to be around 90 per cent.
plus pure. It is important to note that Northern Ireland does not at
this stage have the same drug problem as other parts of the United
Kingdom. Use of crack cocaine and crystal methylamphetamine is low in
Northern Ireland, unlike other parts of the UK where both these highly
addictive drugs have had catastrophic effects on users and communities,
but it is vital that we work together to make sure that we further
reduce the impact of drugs in Northern Ireland.
PSNI,
together with other agencies, is increasingly adopting intelligence-led
operations to identify those who organise the trafficking of drugs in
order to prevent drugs from reaching our shores. One recent example was
the SOCA-led multi-agency seizure of some 1.7 tonnes of
cocaine off the Cork coast. The potential harm of that and other
shipments that have been seized is incalculable and is an excellent
example of international
co-operation. Cash
in transit attacks in Northern Ireland have been falling. That is very
welcome news. In 2001 there were 121 cash-in-transit attacks,
equivalent to 16 per cent. of the total across the United Kingdom as a
whole. In 2006 the figure fell to 51, and in 2007 it fell again to 22.
The impressive improvement in Northern Ireland did
not happen by accident. The OCTF looked at the issue and put in place a
set of measures on a cross-agency basis. That involved a central
control room to track the movements of cash-in-transit vans. Indeed, I
visited the control room recently and was impressed to see
representatives of private security companies, the Post Office and PSNI
working together in one room to make sure that cash-in-transit vans
were being tracked and properly monitored. All that is helping to
defeat those who try that kind of
criminality. Cross-border
fuel fraud continues to be a problem. I am aware of the keen interest
shown by members of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee whose
chairman, the hon. Member for South Staffordshire, is with us this
afternoon. Fuel fraud includes smuggling from the Republic of Ireland
to Northern Ireland, the laundering of rebated diesel, and stretching
fuel by mixing cheaper fuel such as kerosene with higher grade oils. I
remain determined to tackle the issue head on. There have been some
successes recently. In July and August alone, HMRC seized more than
117,000 litres of illegal fuel, some 88 vehicles and more than
£25,000 in cash. Crucially, it made a number of significant
arrests as well.
Sammy
Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): The Minister is right that in
the recent raids by HMRC and PSNI, one of the significant factors is
that people were caught this time. It was not just physical assets that
were seized. Does he agree that the practice of HMRC seeking simply to
recover the tax that has been lost and not pushing for prison sentences
for those who are engaged in such activities ensures that it is a
fairly low risk activity? HMRC should not be concerned only about the
lost revenue, but should push more vigorously for prison sentences so
that those involved are put out of
circulation.
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