Mr.
Robertson: The hon. Lady is absolutely right to raise that
subject. I am quoting street values, but that is only the beginning.
The cost is incalculable when we take into account the medical
problems, the further crime and everything else. The drugs problem is a
scourge of society and we have to do what we can to tackle it. Although
the Government were correcting a mistake, I was pleased that they
reclassified cannabis at a higher level. The classification should
never have been reduced; it sent the wrong signal to young people and I
am glad that the Government reversed the
decision. The
Organised Crime Task Force has reported that the drugs market is
limited in Northern Ireland, and the Minister is correct to say that.
The UK currently has the highest level of drug use in Europe and the
second highest level of drug-related deaths. Although Northern Ireland
does not yet have the same problem, we have to do all that we can to
prevent drugs from taking over the Province as they have in certain
areas of the UK—we would probably find it was the case in all
our constituencies, if we analysed the situation. There has been an
emergence of drug factories able to mass-produce drugs, which, again,
we need to address. The Belfast Telegraph reported in an article
last week that one drug manufacturing operation had links with triads
in south-east Asia, which is another worrying trend. Such operations
are not confined to the communities—bad though that
is—but are becoming an international trade that threatens to
draw in Northern Ireland.
Fuel
laundering is a continuing problem and affects both Northern Ireland
and the UK. In October 2007, a substantial oil and acid laundering
plant was uncovered by the police. The estimated annual revenue loss
was placed at £1.2 million, so the extent of that problem is
great, too. Criminals continue to exploit the difference in excise duty
between Northern Ireland and the Republic through fuel smuggling. The
Minister talked about that matter at some length when we debated
organised crime in Westminster Hall as long ago as 2006. At that point
we agreed to disagree amicably. Although it is said that there cannot
be tax harmonisation with the Republic, with regards to fuel smuggling
as well as business, we must recognise that Northern Ireland is the
only part of the United Kingdom with a border with another European
country. To boost business, as is so desperately required, we must look
at tax rates in Northern Ireland. I see no
problem with having different tax rates across the UK—we have
different council tax and other rates across the country, so we should
not rule it
out. It
has been two years since the Select Committee’s report on
organised crime, and the Government have passed several pieces of
legislation relating to it, but how much has the situation moved on? Is
it actually regressing? We seem to be bogged down with the same old
problems that existed when the paramilitaries were using money from
crime to fuel their political ambitions. Although the Provisional
IRA’s move away from such activity is welcome, we must not take
our eye off the ball. New problems emerge as society changes, and sadly
crime will always exist. People who lack social responsibility will
always be out for their own gain. Unfortunately, the paramilitaries are
best positioned—the Committee will understand what I
mean—to exploit the opportunities that exist. In that respect,
the only way to tackle organised crime—the Minister touched on
this point—is to ensure that we bring down the paramilitary
organisations. In
conclusion, much has been achieved in Northern Ireland in recent years,
but there remain things to be done. The loyalists must disarm and end
their criminal activity and the dissident republicans must give up
their illegal activities completely. The Executive must continue to
meet to deal with everyday issues, and not just discuss border and
constitutional issues—it must address the issues that people are
worried about each and every day. Business must be allowed to flourish.
Only then can the Province secure the lasting peace and prosperity that
those who live there
deserve. 5.33
pm Mr.
Eddie McGrady (South Down) (SDLP): I thank the Minister
for a comprehensive introduction to the debate. He will be glad to hear
that as a result of some of his answers, I do not need to mention many
of my worries and concerns. The hon. Member for East Antrim made the
important point that it is not really a penalty to deduct funds from
those engaged in organised crime. The penalty must be severe criminal
prosecution. Otherwise we shall worry that they will do exactly the
same again. As often as not they will be left with a surfeit—a
surplus of ill-gotten gains that they should not have had in the first
place—so it is no real
deterrent. Last
April, in line with the wisdom of the powers that be, the Assets
Recovery Agency, which pursued so-called organised crime in Northern
Ireland—crime that has mainly been organised in terms of
paramilitary strategy and bases—was wound up and subsumed into
the Serious Organised Crime Agency. We had great concerns about that at
the time, because the Assets Recovery Agency of Northern Ireland,
co-operating with the Criminal Assets Bureau in the Republic of
Ireland, had a high success rate and a high profile. Frankly, it struck
terror into the paramilitary organisations. Our concerns at the time
were that when the agency was subsumed into SOCA, what were big
problems for the small community of Northern Ireland would become a
relatively minor problem in the context of national problems and
international organisations. I ask the Minister the question we asked
at the time: is he satisfied that the resources of SOCA and the
attention paid to the issues by SOCA, which took over the ARA, make it
as effective, determined
and focused as the ARA was? I am sorry to use all these mnemonics, but I
get tongue-tied if I use the words, so it is easier. I get a feeling
that there
is— 5.36
pm Sitting
suspended for Divisions in the
House. 6.5
pm On
resuming—
Mr.
McGrady: Before I was so rudely interrupted by the
Division bell, I was saying that we would like some reassurance that
the obvious effectiveness of the Assets Recovery Agency has been
translated into the new regime of the Serious Organised Crime Agency.
Following on from that is the question of whether the co-operation
between the Criminal Assets Bureau and the public is as effective as it
was. Previously, two local intelligence and security policing forces
were working hand in hand in territories, and with people, they knew
well. Has that situation benefited from and continued under the new
arrangements? The
Minister is a strategic player. When I was in the Lobby, I was handed
the answers to two parliamentary questions that provide me with the
second part of my speech, but there are one or two points that I want
to make now. The Minister mentioned paramilitaries, with great emphasis
on dissidents, less emphasis on loyalism and loyalist paramilitaries
and an even lesser emphasis on the other minor republican
paramilitaries, including PIRA, if it can be considered minor in this
context. What attention is SOCA giving to those organisations? The IMC
report, which the Minister and other Committee members quoted, said
“time is running out” for the Ulster Defence Association
and the Ulster Volunteer Force to decommission their
weapons. I
want to draw the Minister’s attention to a most bizarre public
statement by the assistant chief constable, now retired, who, when
asked if the PSNI knew about the sites of weapons in Northern Ireland,
said, after much
hesitation, “Well,
the short answer to that is yes—and then if the opportunity to
arrest and prosecute is there, we
will.” They
will, but they have not. There has been no raid on known—I
emphasise the word “known”—arms stocks of loyalist
paramilitaries. When that account is translated, it is can be seen that
that weaponry is available for organised crime groups and, surely, it
is imperative that it be taken out of circulation and not denied in the
way that it is being denied for political considerations. Those weapons
may have some standard forensic and DNA material on and in them that
would pertain to existing inquiries and prosecutions. I fail to
understand how SOCA, and people like that, are not incensed by this
attitude. It has to be addressed sooner rather than
later. Those
of us who live in the community—I am sure it is the same for all
of us in our individual communities—know that Northern Ireland
is a small community and even the city is made up of villages where
everyone knows what is going on. I see the drug dealers on my street
and the police know who they are, but they do not lift them. When I
query this, I am told, “We are out to catch the big
fish.” I say, “Grand, but while the big fish are swimming
around beyond your reach, the smaller fish are feeding our children at
the school gates with
drugs, day in and day out.” I would rather see the minnows
captured and put away, so that we at least cut off some tentacles of
the system by which drugs are distributed. I should like to be sure
that there will be change in that
regard. Dr.
McCrea: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman’s
constituency is no different from mine. Young people tell me that those
who want drugs have absolutely no problem with availability. Certainly,
many want action taken to deliver them from those who walk the streets
and peddle drugs to
them.
Mr.
McGrady: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his supportive
intervention. I agree, and that situation is replicated by the
experience of us all. We can all point out where we could get drugs in
our communities if we really wanted to. Those people should be taken
out now. That should not be predicated on some grand design to take out
the big fish, because a lot of damage is being done in the meantime.
The big fish might be caught later on, but if we cut off the outlets,
even the minor ones, we will cut off the source of revenue and
distribution. The
Minister gave me some statistics for 2008, but I remember that, in
2006-07, the number of people arrested on drugs charges was about
1,840. It would be interesting to know, two years later, how many of
those people were actually charged. I notice that in the past year,
when we apparently had enhanced success against drugs, only 77 people
were charged. What has happened to the other 1,500 to
1,800?
Mrs.
Iris Robinson: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is
a major concern in our communities that the courts system is
deliberately giving lenient sentences, or none at all, because the
prisons are overcrowded? I got that information from a woman who had
suffered the crime of rape but was told that the gentleman who had
raped her would not get a sentence because there was no room in the
jail.
Mr.
McGrady: I am inclined to agree with the hon. Lady, but I
do not have personal knowledge of whether there is a court policy on
the matter or whether there are just circumstances that should be
remedied to enable the courts to fulfil their obligation of proper
imprisonment, where appropriate, for rape, drugs or whatever the crime
may
be. Will
the Minister be a wee bit more specific in naming paramilitary
organisations, rather than generalising about republican paramilitaries
and loyalist paramilitaries? Will he name the specific paramilitary and
quasi-paramilitary organisations based on the crimes that they commit?
That is essential for public knowledge and public co-operation in the
pursuit of the perpetrators of those
crimes. I
know that many Members wish to speak, so I shall make my final point. A
matter that has never been properly addressed is the control of our
communities by paramilitaries, erstwhile paramilitaries and
pseudo-paramilitaries, through community organisations. In various
parts of our community, particularly the city
areas, they are strangling our communities. They are dominating them,
extorting from them and racketeering them, and little or no attention
is being paid to them. I suspect that that is mainly because of
political correctness gone mad, because they are major ex-paramilitary
people who, instead of being paid by the secret organisations, are now
being quasi-paid through the state. That is an abomination, and it
should be stopped. I should like the Minister to pay more attention to
that, to relieve people of some—only some—alleged
community groups that are doing no good at all and in fact doing
positive harm. That is not to deny the great good done by many bona
fide community
organisations. Sammy
Wilson: The hon. Gentleman makes a very important point.
Does he agree that, even in Government circles, some of those people
are now recognised as community activists? That term is often a
pseudo-description of the kind of people who would have fought in the
paramilitary
organisations.
Mr.
McGrady: I agree with the hon. Gentleman, who articulates
the point that these people are almost put on a pedestal as the way
forward in managing a community. If we want communities managed by
force and coercion, at the point of a gun, yes, we can go to them. If
we want communities managed with understanding, sympathy and help, stay
away from them
completely. Certain
community restorative justice groups were licensed by the Government,
but the Government admitted that they did not fulfil the obligations of
the legislation. That is wrong, and it sends the wrong message. I am
sorry, but some of those things dictate the lower levels of crime,
which are the crimes that affect the people whom I meet day to day. I
do not aspire to be terribly involved in the higher echelons of
paramilitary co-operative crime. I thank you, Mr. Atkinson,
and the Committee for giving me time to
speak. 6.15
pm
Sir
Patrick Cormack: It is a great pleasure to follow the hon.
Gentleman, who is truly honourable. He has every reason to be proud of
his record of bravery. I do not always agree with him, although I
frequently do, but he has been a democratic participant in Northern
Ireland politics for a long
time.
Sir
Patrick Cormack: No, not too long, because he has
contributed his wisdom and good humour, and we are all very much in his
debt. He made some powerful and admirable points, particularly in his
closing remarks, with which I believe every member of the Committee
would
agree. I
ought to begin with an apology, Mr. Atkinson. I advised you,
and I am grateful to you for calling me, that many weeks ago I agreed
to propose the toast to a famous architect, Donald Insall—I am
wearing my heritage hat—when he marks 50 years in practice
tonight. I will have to leave earlier than I should have liked to go to
fulfil that happy obligation. I am grateful to the Minister, to my hon.
Friend the Member for Tewkesbury and to you, sir, for accepting that. I
hope that the Committee will acquit me of any discourtesy.
Several
Members referred to the Select Committee report. It is a good report,
and I am exceptionally grateful to all the members of my Committee who
played a constructive part in it: not only my hon. Friend the Member
for South-West Norfolk but my hon. Friends the Members for East
Londonderry and for East Antrim—my hon. Friend from
Larne—who have just left the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee
and who will be replaced by the hon. Members for Strangford and for
Upper Bann. We shall formally welcome the new members of the Select
Committee tomorrow, but I like to thank the two aforesaid hon.
Gentlemen for their
contributions. The
report was unanimous. The hon. Member for Blaydon played an important
part in our deliberations, as did all the members of the Select
Committee. We published the report in Armagh at a press conference in
July 2006. It was a significant event to publish it in that part of
Northern Ireland at that time. Of course, the situation had improved
significantly during the years before that. Publishing in that place at
that time meant that we had to have extensive police protection, but we
were able to make a gesture. The Select Committee was unanimous in
drawing attention to the state of organised crime and in making some
important recommendations to the
Government. Barely
three weeks ago, the Select Committee was in Northern Ireland, and I
had the great honour of speaking to a sombre gathering in Crossmaglen
in support of the Quinn family. That was a moving occasion, but it
could not have happened a relatively short time ago. The courage of the
Quinn family and those who have come out to help them is remarkable
indeed. Those of us who were there felt
moved. Today’s
statement, to which the Minister has referred, is another significant
milestone. I hope that the statement issued by the First Minister and
Deputy First Minister will be followed by smooth progress towards the
devolution of policing and justice. We all hope that. They have come to
this agreement and have recognised a process, so it is important that
none of us breathes down their necks as they work towards its
achievement. The key word in the joint statement is
“confidence”. All parts of the community—what used
to be called both communities—need to have confidence that
policing and justice should be devolved. They also need confidence in
whoever the new Minister of Justice is whenever he or she takes
office.
The fact that
we are having this debate illustrates that all is not yet well and
normal in Northern Ireland. Organised crime is of a different dimension
from that experienced by the rest of the United Kingdom. The things
that the Committee pointed out in its report are still highly relevant.
For instance, we talked about the measures taken by the PSNI to
strengthen its capacity to combat organised crime, but we stressed that
the fight against organised crime is a shared responsibility between
the PSNI, the other law enforcement agencies, the Northern Ireland
Departments and the community at large—especially its political
leaders. If the confidence upon which successful smooth devolution is
to be built is to be shared, it is important that all in the
community—particularly the political leaders from all
parties—recognise the role that they have to play. I have great
faith in my colleagues who sit for Northern Ireland constituencies in
the House and I believe that they will give us that
leadership. I hope that those who do not take their seats, but who were
elected to the House, will give similar leadership in the perhaps
difficult months
ahead. In
the report, we also recognise that cross-border co-operation is vital
to defeating organised crime. We welcome the establishment of more
arrangements for joint operations between the law enforcement agencies
in Northern Ireland and those in the Republic of Ireland. In successive
visits, the Committee has met both Commissioners—the previous
one and the present one—of An Garda Siochana. We have talked
with those gentleman and had many public and private conversations with
Sir Hugh Orde. He has been an exemplary Chief Constable and deserves
all our thanks. I am glad to see the hon. Member for Foyle indicate his
assent in relation to that. Sir Hugh has not had an easy road and when
he appeared before the Committee just a fortnight ago, he again
stressed that the threat from dissident republicans was greater than at
any time in the past five or six years. That is a sobering
thought. The
cross-border co-operation that we are currently looking into in our
present inquiry is vital. It is very important that we build upon that
because organised crime will not finally be defeated unless we do so.
Other comments that we made in the report are still highly relevant,
one of which has been referred to this afternoon. There is also a
perception that those found guilty of organised-crime-related offences
are not given sentences commensurate with the severity of their crimes.
If that perception continues, it will have a damaging effect on
confidence in the administration of justice in Northern Ireland.
Although we recognise the complexities of the situation, we recommend
that a connection with organised crime be made an aggravating factor in
sentencing in Northern Ireland. When we conducted our more recent
inquiry into the prison service in Northern Ireland, we discovered the
scandal of all those who were in prison for minor offences—fine
defaulters and so on—and recognised some of the apparently
inadequate sentences given to those guilty of really serious crime. We
were concerned about that. We remain concerned. Every member of this
Northern Ireland Grand Committee should be concerned about
that. Two
points were brought out earlier which I felt the Minister did not deal
with adequately. I have a great respect for the Minister. The whole
community in Northern Ireland owes him a tremendous amount because he
has faced up to his responsibilities in a very even-handed way. He has
been immensely industrious. He has earned the trust of people in all
parts of the Province. Even when they do not absolutely agree with
everything, they know that he is a man of honour and a man of his word.
However, we need to make better progress on the fuel issue. It is not
yet as good as it should be. The comments made in this report are still
far too relevant. Like the leader of the SDLP, I am worried about the
reduction in the number of officers in HMRC. Can we really be truly
confident that they can tackle this crime in the way that it needs to
be tackled if their numbers have been
reduced? While
I am entirely satisfied that those who hold office in SOCA are men and
women of great probity and diligence, the setting up of SOCA and the
subsuming within it of the organised crime agency has had an effect on
morale. I hope that it will not be lasting. There are still those who
are apprehensive of the change. One
must recognise these facts. It was not just in Northern Ireland that we
met that degree of apprehension; we met it in the Republic too. Unless
we can adequately deal with organised crime, building upon the real
progress that has been made, whoever holds the justice portfolio in the
Northern Ireland Assembly when these matters are finally devolved will
have a much, much more difficult task. We have an
obligation to ensure that as and when devolution really comes, when the
transition takes place, we have put sufficient resources into the
tackling of organised crime to make it perfectly natural and normal for
a province with a population of only 1.5 million people—the
population of many English counties—to deal with this
adequately. We all must recognise that. I recognise that acutely. The
population of Northern Ireland is not all that different from the
population of Staffordshire. But the amount of crime that has taken
place in Northern Ireland over the last 30 years and the incredible
burdens placed upon first the Royal Ulster Constabulary and then the
PSNI mean that we are dealing with something unique within the United
Kingdom. So,
of course I want to see the smooth transition to devolution. It has to
be predicated upon the even more rigorous and successful tackling of
the root causes of organised crime within Northern Ireland. I rest my
case there. I apologise to the Committee once again. I thank all those
who have played a part in this report and the subsequent reports. I
hope that as we move towards devolution the Committee that I have the
honour to chair will be able to play its constructive part in helping
the people of Northern Ireland in general, and its elected
representatives in particular, to achieve a smooth transition to proper
devolution. 6.30
pm Mr.
Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): I welcome the
opportunity to participate in this debate today. It is true that we
have made progress in tackling organised crime in Northern Ireland and
as a former member of the Policing Board I want to commend the
Minister, because I am aware of the work that he has done in chairing
the Organised Crime Task Force. He has provided leadership, and I have
heard that from the PSNI, HM Revenue and Customs, SOCA and
others.
We are often
quick to criticise Ministers when we do not think that they are doing
things right, but on this occasion I want to put it on the record on
behalf of the Democratic Unionist party that we acknowledge the very
good work that the Minister is doing in Northern Ireland. We recognise
the priority that he gives to this issue and that, as chair of the
Organised Crime Task Force, he has really got to grips with it and
provided the political leadership that was needed at a crucial
time.
We have said
consistently as a party that we believe that a key element of
completing the transition from the civil unrest, violence and
criminality that we have seen in the past is to deal with the
ill-gotten gains of that criminality, and to ensure that it is dealt
with. We welcome the fact that some of the leading players in
paramilitary organisations have been subjected to the rigour of the law
and are now beginning to be held to account for their involvement in
organised crime.
There was a
fear in the community that, if we moved on, devolution was established
and stability began to be achieved, it would be convenient to draw a
veil over all of that criminality. However, that has not been the case.
From my own contacts with the Minister and the various agencies, I know
that there are other individuals from across the spectrum of
paramilitarism in Northern Ireland who are actively being pursued at
the moment and whose assets are being seized. That work is welcome and
we expect it to continue. No one in Northern Ireland should be above
the law, when it comes to organised crime and the proceeds of that
crime. Indeed, we look forward to the day when the money that was
stolen from the Northern bank and obtained in other notorious criminal
acts is recovered, in whatever form of asset it has now been translated
into.
So we welcome
the progress that has been made by the Organised Crime Task Force, led
by the Minister. We had concerns when the Assets Recovery Agency was
subsumed into the new agency, SOCA, and I know that the Minister was
made aware of those concerns. Having met SOCA recently and having been
briefed on its work in Northern Ireland, I am pleased to say that at
least some of our fears and concerns have been allayed. However, we
want to give SOCA a little more time to see how it
performs.
At this
stage, I want to pay tribute to Alan McQuillan, the former assistant
Chief Constable in Northern Ireland, who led the ARA during the time
that it existed. He did some very good work and provided some very able
leadership in establishing the agency and driving it forward. He was
fearless in his approach to dealing with the criminal elements of
society and his talents are sadly missed at this time.
However, we
will work with SOCA, as we will work with HMRC and, of course, the
PSNI, all of whom are key stakeholders and partners in the drive to
tackle organised crime in Northern Ireland.
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