Sammy
Wilson: My hon. Friend makes a strong point. Many of the
organisations involved have different objectives. One organisation sees
getting back the revenue as important; another focuses on punishing
someone for breaking the law; and a third sees that laws have been
broken in relation to vehicles on the road, but adopts different
penalties and a different approach. There are also issues such as
licensing requirements. There are so many different objectives, which
may have led to that
situation. I
do not want to pour cold water on the efforts and improvements that
have been made to date. While organised crime in the form of
paramilitary activity on the terrorist side has diminished, organised
crime generally has increased. It is a cancer on our society, and it
leads to massive loss of revenue, whether that involves fuel duty,
landfill tax, pollution or intellectual property crime. There is a
knock-on effect from all those activities. Because the co-operation of
so many members of the public is required in the buying of illegal
goods, it encourages that criminal mentality. We need to ensure that we
stamp it out and that we do so very
quickly.
Dr.
McCrea: Does my hon. Friend agree that there is also a
tremendous loss to those who are running legitimate businesses? Those
are the people with whom we should chiefly be concerned. Many are going
to the wall because illegal businesses are taking revenue away from
them.
Sammy
Wilson: When the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee took
evidence—the hon. Member for Blaydon will bear this
out—frustration was expressed by people who had attended the
Committee four or five years earlier, especially the petrol retailers.
They did not take umbrage at being back again, but they were frustrated
because they told the Committee about the issue five years earlier but
the problem remains. The same is true of the Road Haulage Association,
many of whose members found themselves competing against people who
could cut costs because they were acting illegally. We owe it to those
legitimate businesses that are trying hard to make a contribution to
the economy to make a contribution ourselves to prevent damage to the
environment and the maintenance of health and safety rules.
Some
confusion may have arisen because of the multi-agency approach. It may
be difficult to deal with some of the people involved.
Indeed—dare I say it?—political considerations may have
been made in relation to individuals on both the loyalist and the
republican sides who are engaged in such criminal
activities.
Mark
Durkan: Does the hon. Gentleman recall that, earlier in
this debate, the hon. Member for Tewkesbury talked about a number of
paramilitary organisations that are up to their necks in crime and said
that it is time to bring them down? Listening to what the hon.
Gentleman has just said, I must say that many of us have a strong sense
that the approach of many authorities during this process has been to
bring those organisations round rather than to bring them down. Those
authorities have perhaps been content to bring down crime without
actually bringing down the organisations and people behind the
crime.
Sammy
Wilson: That relates to the point, which the hon. Member
for South Down made earlier, that even at a lower level we are almost
giving legitimacy to
people who were involved in nefarious activities in their communities by
elevating them to the level of community activists—they are the
model for how people take their communities forward and so on. I am not
sure whether tolerance is the price that some of those organisations
demanded, whether there is tolerance because there is a belief that
people will eventually change as a result of the process or whether
there is fear about the political consequences if we were to lean too
hard on one group or another.
There is
certainly suspicion—the Minister needs to be aware of
this—among people in Northern Ireland that a certain level of
criminal activity is tolerated. Why do the various agencies not go to
the farms in south Armagh where fuel laundering takes place on a
regular basis? Why do they not target individuals who are known to be
involved in such activities and lean on them harder? Some people might
say that that would be harassment or an infringement of those
individuals’ human rights, but the important thing for those who
want to live law-abiding lives is that we do not tolerate criminal
activity. I hope that the Minister will assure us that that is his
objective. 7.8
pm
Paul
Goggins: This has been an excellent debate on a topic that
always inspires passion among hon. Members, whatever their constituency
or political party, because we know the damage that organised crime
does. Therefore, we all support the efforts of those who are on the
front line of that fight.
I will try to
respond to the many comments that have been made during the debate this
afternoon, beginning with those made by the hon. Member for Tewkesbury.
I was very grateful for the fact that today he welcomed the recent
developments. The most important aspect of the announcement today, as
much as its contents are important, is the way in which we have got
here—the fact that the parties themselves have resolved those
issues is significant. That makes a break with the past, because the
parties are doing this for themselves and to serve the people of
Northern Ireland. I am sure that all the main parties in this House
celebrate that fact as a real step forward.
I want to
respond to a number of issues raised by the hon. Member for Tewkesbury.
We have responded to all the recommendations in the Northern Ireland
Affairs Committee report on organised crime. Not all the
recommendations in that report were for the Government—some were
for other authorities. I committed to the Chairman of the Northern
Ireland Affairs Committee that I would write on a reasonably regular
basis to update the Select Committee on further action taken, and I
intend to continue to do so, because the subject is something of an
abiding
interest. I
agree with the hon. Member for Tewkesbury that people need to speak
out, come forward, point the finger, give evidence and be prepared to
stand up for what is right. Until people the length and breadth of
Northern Ireland are prepared to do that, there will always be some
difficulties, so that is
important. The
hon. Gentleman asked me to define success. I think that some of the
best successes in tackling organised crime have been in reducing
cash-in-transit robberies,
and the practical arrangements of the control room. If he has not yet
done so, I am sure that he would be welcome to visit it the next time
he is in Northern Ireland. He will see how companies are working with
the PSNI. They use phones and computers, and they track what happens
and keep an eye on the vehicles at all times. It is a practical,
effective
innovation. We
have stepped up the fight against fuel fraud. Frankly, we needed
to—I believe that that is generally acknowledged. I take some
heart from the early results of the fuel enforcement group, but that
work needs to
continue. I
am also pleased about the figures that I was able to announce recently
on asset recovery. They are moving in a good, positive direction. That
is what people want. The politicians want it, and the people do, too.
They have an innate sense of justice and believe that those who have
taken illegally should be made to pay back, and that their assets
should be
recovered. I
assure the hon. Gentleman that accountants and other professionals who
have any cause for concern about somebody laundering money or operating
illegally have a statutory obligation to report it. The regime includes
suspicious activity reports, which they must make. If they knowingly do
not report evidence of wrongdoing, they themselves could be subject to
criminal
action. I
agree with the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for South Antrim, who
made an important point in an intervention, that the real losers from
organised crime are often legitimate businesses, where people who are
trying to make a living and a contribution but are being undermined by
the criminals. It is important that we protect such people. Therefore,
it is important that the business community is represented on the OCTF.
When we do roadshows in various parts of Northern Ireland, the business
community is always
represented. We
had a good discussion about drugs and drug seizures, and there was a
good exchange between the hon. Members for Tewkesbury and for
Strangford, both of whom pointed out that we should consider not just
the value of the drugs that are seized but the harm that they do. Even
drugs with a small value can do a huge amount of damage to a family and
community. We must never forget that, and we should try to find ways,
if we can, of measuring drug seizure success by reference to harm
reduction as well as cash
value. Several
hon. Members mentioned the international dimension of the drugs
problem. Yesterday evening, I was at a reception in Northern Ireland
with the vice-president of Colombia, Francisco Santos Calderón,
who has done tremendous work in this area. He said that the cocaine
that originates in his country and often ends up on the streets of
Northern Ireland and other parts of the UK is doing terrible damage to
his people and to the environment. The amount of deforestation
associated with growing coca is enormous. We have a collective
international interest in tackling the
problem. On
Chinese gangs, the hon. Member for East Antrim was right to say that
they are in no way connected with the indigenous Chinese
population and are part of international networks. I am
pleased with the action that the PSNI has taken. It has
demolished some 100 cannabis factories in just a few months. Indeed,
one reason why we have a growing foreign national prisoner
population in Maghaberry prison is because a huge number of those people
have been arrested and remanded and are awaiting trial for the offences
with which they have been charged. Again, that is a positive
move. In
reply to my hon. Friend the Member for South Down, it is important to
understand that wherever there is sufficient evidence to lead to a
prosecution, people should be prosecuted. There should be no
misunderstanding about that whatsoever. If there is evidence, people
should be charged, prosecuted and dealt with. The beauty of the
proceeds of crime legislation that we have introduced is that where we
do not have sufficient evidence to prosecute, we can still get people
on the lower burden of proof. We can take back the assets that they
have acquired illegally, even if we cannot sustain a prosecution to
lock them up in prison. It is important that we do both rather than
limiting ourselves to
one. My
hon. Friend talked about the merger of the ARA and SOCA, as did a
number of other members of the Committee. The commitment that we made
was that there would be strong leadership, that we would keep the
resources at least at the same level and that SOCA would be able to set
local priorities for asset recovery. I am pleased that it seems from
today’s debate that progress is being made and that people have
confidence that those things have been
established. The
hon. Member for East Antrim underlined the global reach of SOCA, which
can connect law enforcement in Northern Ireland with the gangs and
networks that operate internationally. We are already seeing some signs
of success in that. I reassure him that its relationship with the
Criminal Assets Bureau remains strong, and indeed grows stronger
through the various operations that they do
together. The
hon. Gentleman mentioned loyalist paramilitary organisations and made
it absolutely clear, as a number of hon. Members have in recent months,
that time is running out for the decommissioning of arms by those
organisations. Like him, I saw the remarks that Peter Sheridan made
before his retirement, but I have seen no evidence whatever that the
PSNI is holding back despite knowing where the guns are. If people are
holding guns and not decommissioning them, they stand liable to have
the full force of the law thrown at them. Of course, we have
legislation to allow a decommissioning process to happen. He used
exactly the same words that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State
recently used, saying that if they are going to decommission, it has to
be sooner rather than later. The patience of the people of Northern
Ireland, let alone of people in here, will not last for ever.
There is no
policy of not giving custodial sentences because the prisons are full.
In fact, I have prioritised enough of the capital expenditure of the
Northern Ireland Office to build 400 additional prison places, which
are being built right at this moment. A number are already in place,
and more are to be built. If a judge decides that somebody should go to
prison for the crime that they have committed, it is important that
they can send them there. There should never be any inhibition about
that. My
hon. Friend the Member for Foyle asked me to go through the various
paramilitary organisations and make absolutely clear the kind of
criminality in which they have been involved. One or two members have
done that to some extent, and I can point him to the IMC report, which
goes through the matter in great detail. He is quite right, and I shall
refer briefly to certain groups. Ã"glaigh
na hÉireann has been involved in drug dealing, robbery, fuel
laundering and smuggling, especially of tobacco. The Continuity IRA has
been involved in drug dealing, robbery and tiger kidnapping, extortion,
fuel laundering and smuggling. I am referring to the evidence that the
IMC reported on. The INLA has been involved in drug dealing, extortion,
robbery and offences against the Revenue such as fuel laundering and
smuggling. The Real IRA has been involved in a wide range of serious
crime; the Loyalist Volunteer Force has been involved in drug dealing;
the Ulster Defence Association has been involved in drug dealing,
extortion, money laundering, loan sharking and the sale of counterfeit
goods; and the UDA south-east Antrim breakaway group has been involved
in extortion and drugs. On the Ulster Volunteer Force, the report
comments: “Some
members or former members continue to engage in a range of criminal
activity though without leadership
sanction.” That
is true also of PIRA, individual members of which may occasionally
involve themselves in criminal activity, but not with the sanction and
approval of the organisation. I hope that that satisfies my hon. Friend
the Member for Foyle that we recognise the need to understand the
details, and I am grateful to him for pointing that
out. As
he frequently does, my hon. Friend spoke with great passion about the
importance of not allowing a parallel justice system to operate in
Northern Ireland. He understands the matter better than most people,
and I agree with him 100 per cent. It is important that we do not
accord a reputation to people who do not merit it by giving them a
place in the system. He raised legitimate concerns about
community-based restorative justice. Such concerns are why we have put
in place the protocol and why the chief inspector of criminal justice
has to approve any scheme before it can be authorised and returns to
check that people are retaining the standards required.
As a number
of hon. Members have said, it is important that nobody turns a blind
eye to criminality in the hope that somehow it is a sticking plaster on
the political process. We cannot allow that to happen, because it would
be based on a false premise and would lock in criminality in a way that
none of us wants to see. The important and constant message is that we
have to deal with criminality. The great thing about Northern Ireland
politics is that all the politicians are there now, and that is where
they all stand and should
stand. The
hon. Member for South Staffordshire explained why he could not be
present at the end of the debate. I thank him and his Committee for
their tremendous work highlighting these concerns and others in a
detailed way. It is a very active Committee, which gets out and about
and meets people face to face who might not come here to give evidence,
but who can access the Committee with its many visits to Northern
Ireland.
The hon.
Gentleman spoke about the recent meeting with the Quinn family. I know
that people appreciate that kind of meeting, particularly when they are
in such difficult situations. He is right about improving our activity
on fuel fraud. I am determined for the good start made through the
enforcement group to continue.
As we have said to him and to others, we are still prepared to consider
whether a new offence of fuel laundering is necessary or if the present
powers are sufficient—we will keep an open
mind. I
genuinely and warmly thank the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley for
what he said about my contribution. It is a modest contribution,
certainly compared with people such as Alan McQuillan, whom he
mentioned, who has done tremendous work on the front line. It is those
officers and officials who really make a difference, but if, in some
small way, I helped to build something on which others can build
further, I would be only too happy.
The right
hon. Gentleman is right that there must be no no-go areas in Northern
Ireland. It is absolutely important that everybody feels safe and free
wherever they go in Northern Ireland. He referred to a case in a fairly
oblique way; I am aware of it and it is important when dealing with
certain people that we send a signal, which is understood across the
criminal networks, that we mean business and will deal with
them.
The right
hon. Gentleman mentioned money, and the First Minister and the Deputy
First Minister have already made it clear in their statement that they
want to discuss financial issues relating to policing and criminal
justice. We will, of course, enter into those discussions with them and
others. The
hon. Member for East Antrim raised several issues. The international
aspect of organised crime is absolutely clear, and he made the point
that SOCA can help us with that. He talked about the importance of
asset recovery, which, as I said at the start, is everybody’s
business. The Northern Ireland Environment Agency has accredited eight
financial investigators to do that work, so everybody can and should
use those powers.
I strongly
agree with what the hon. Gentleman said about the impact of organised
crime on the environment. Illegal dumping of waste is not acceptable,
whoever is behind it. Following the comments by the right hon. Member
for Lagan Valley on working together, I am perfectly happy to see
whether there are ways in which we can bring the agencies connected
with the devolved Departments together with the OCTF and do more, if we
possibly can. Our environment is precious, and we cannot allow illegal
dumping to blight the
landscape. The
hon. Gentleman’s point about personal responsibility was very
well made: we can organise crime task forces, the police and other
agencies, which all do a tremendous job, but if somebody is prepared to
buy something that they think is a good deal but is helping to fund
drugs, guns and other criminal activity, in the end, those people are
complicit in organised crime and racketeering. We all try to make that
point in our different ways. If people think that they have a good
deal, we make a plea for them to think twice. If fuel is 30p or 40p
cheaper a litre than the standard price, people should know that
something is wrong; and if someone is offered a deal in a pub or on a
market that is too good to be true, they should think twice because
they could be putting money into the hands of criminal gangs. It is
obviously far more positive for people not to do that and, by working
together in that way, we can face down organised criminal gangs. It is
not easy, but nothing to do with this issue is. These gangs are cunning
in mind and in the way in which they operate, and they have an
international reach. If we stand together as politicians, as Government
and as local communities, we can make a difference. Once again, I thank
you, Mr. Atkinson, for chairing such an excellent
debate. Question
put and agreed
to. Resolved, That
the Committee has considered the matter of organised crime in Northern
Ireland.
Policing
Motion
made, and Question proposed, That the Committee do now
adjourn.—[Helen
Goodman.] 7.26
pm David
Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I would like to belatedly
congratulate you on chairing the Committee, Mr. Atkinson. We
have just concluded an interesting debate on organised crime in the
Province and we would now like to deal with the issue of policing in
Northern Ireland. This debate is related to organised crime in that it
represents what I suppose we could call a mirror image of the issue. In
the debate that just ended, we considered the issue of crime; in this
debate, we will consider policing, which is one of the areas that will
help to shape Northern Ireland’s future in the coming
years.
There is no
doubt that Northern Ireland has come quite a distance in recent times,
yet important issues remain outstanding. To set the scene for this
debate on policing, it is worth while and, indeed, essential to remind
ourselves of some of those matters because each of them has an impact
on this debate. I end today with the announcement that a number of
issues are still outstanding as far as the Unionist community is
concerned. We need to address those to get the full context of this
debate on policing.
There is a
need to move away from the mandatory coalition towards a voluntary
coalition system. Such a move would bring many benefits. It would
create an official Opposition and mean that there would be agreement in
advance between the parties that form the Executive about the direction
in which they are going. It would mean that no party could threaten the
institutions because the options available to them would be either
opposition or abstention. That would apply just as much to my party as
it would to any other. Such a move could be only a good thing for the
Province and the sooner it takes place, the better.
We also need
to move forward in finding a resolution to the disputes over parading
and in delivering a new beginning to parading in Northern Ireland. That
is only sensible, given that it falls to the police to ensure public
safety whenever there is a dispute. It remains a public disgrace that
in my constituency, one individual—Mr. Brendan
McKenna—takes part in an un-notified parade in Belfast and
refuses to participate in dialogue. Yet, the Parades Commission
continues to reward him by issuing the determination he wants. I have
said it before and will say it again today: the Parades Commission is
only feeding his refusal to engage in dialogue and bears a significant
amount of blame for the continuation of protests at Drumcree in my
constituency, and that makes the job of the Police Service of Northern
Ireland even more difficult.
There is a
way open for the commission that I put to it some time ago. I suggested
that it should issue what in effect would be a post-dated determination
in which it stated that if Mr. McKenna did not engage in
dialogue by a certain date it would issue a determination against his
position. It is reprehensible that the Parades Commission prefers to do
nothing, rather than help to bring about a resolution. We need to
complete the review of public
administration and finally end the cultural wars that have done so much
harm to the Province for so many years. We also need
to ensure that policing is able to face the challenges of the future.
Of course, the issue of devolving policing and justice powers also
requires completion. I am glad that in the last few hours the Sinn Fein
leadership have eventually seen sense and drawn back from their
previous position. That Sinn Fein have called time on their foot
stamping in a situation in which there will be no Sinn Fein Minister
for justice, no political interference in the appointment of judges and
no date agreed to by the DUP is a long overdue acceptance of political
reality by Gerry Adams. It has been a consistent DUP position, led in
policy documents, election manifestos and keynote speeches, that Sinn
Fein will exercise no authority in those matters for a political
lifetime. That has now been agreed. We wait to see whether Gerry Adams
will hold to that position or try to drag his party into yet another
futile campaign aimed at resurrecting his own political career. I
certainly hope that the more realistic elements in Sinn Fein will be
able to keep him in
line. The
PSNI are expected to police the streets with integrity and total
professionalism. They have to investigate incidents, from riots to
domestic violence and everything in between that human nature throws
up. They are called upon to be on the streets nights and day in an
attempt to safeguard the public who turn to them. The sad thing is that
they are expected to do all of that while facing a budget crisis. That
financial nightmare will have a severe and negative impact on policing
and the confidence and safety of the public.
The Chief
Constable is under immense pressure to spread the money across every
area of policing, but there always has to be a contingency fund to
cover the unexpected, and it is a real problem when that is not there.
Two sets of people will feel that the most: the police officers on the
ground and the general public. The Chief Constable cannot be expected
to police every area and every issue 100 per cent. effectively unless
he has the resources to do so. Almost 80 per cent. of the policing
budget pays salaries. It has been suggested that the Chief Constable
will soon have to find a further £26 million this
year to compensate past injury claims, including those for hearing
loss, and additional money to run the police academy.
The
additional financial pressures facing the Chief Constable include
changes to pensions and the retention of the Northern Ireland
transitional allowance because of the pressures put on the NIO by the
DUP, and there is also the need to tackle increased dissident
republican activity, which we heard about in the previous
debate.
It was
recently revealed to the Policing Board that cuts to the front-line
policing services and a halt to recruitment could be forced by the
funding crisis. According to the Chief
Constable: “we
have a substantial gap between the money available to the end of the
year and the money we projected to spend...The reality is, we have a
gap, it is around £24
million.” He
also conceded that any reduction in police numbers would impact on
public confidence in policing. Will the Minister give us his view on
that, and say whether there will be a freeze on recruitment? If so,
what impact could that have on the ending of the discriminatory and
sectarian 50:50 recruitment policy?
Budgetary
constraints are also having a significant and adverse effect on the
Historical Enquiries Team. It has recently come to light that many of
the 180 members of the HET staff could temporarily lose their jobs over
£1.5 million funding. That is in stark contrast to the near
£200 million ploughed into the Bloody Sunday inquiry. With
nearly 3,000 unsolved murders in Northern Ireland, those job losses
must not be allowed. We have often been told by others that there
should be no hierarchy of victims, yet the Government are running the
risk of creating a hierarchy in which the victims of sectarian terror
gangs are less considered than others. Surely, that cannot be so.
Budgetary constraints mean that the Chief Constable is having to
rationalise his resources, particularly the number of police stations
that he can reasonably operate to provide what he considers the best
possible policing service across the Province. The amount saved by
closing a station is not that significant, and there is no guarantee
that that money will go back into the PSNI budget for that area.
Fermanagh—we heard about this in the previous debate—has
lost more than 18 police-related jobs in the past year, and will lose
its complement of eight full-time reserves within the next three years.
At the height of the troubles in Northern Ireland there were 13 police
stations in County Fermanagh. Today there are just seven bases, and
there are plans to reduce that number. Those cuts are largely dictated
by monetary constraints being imposed on the PSNI. It is vital, when
considering station reviews, that the PSNI is clear about the impact
across the whole of the community. It is vital that neither communities
nor police officers are left isolated. I ask the Minister for
reassurance on
that. While
on the subject of manpower, I need also to point out that the full-time
reserves are being phased out. However, the Chief Constable has
admitted to the Policing Board that given the increase in dissident
republican activity, the full-time reserve could become an additional
financial pressure after 2011. I ask the Minister for his view on that
also. Given that the full-time reserves may still be required to tackle
the threat from dissident republican groups, will additional moneys be
available if the Chief Constable says that the reserves need to
stay? There
are further issues regarding dissident republican organisations.
Dissident activity has resulted in serious incidents in different parts
of Northern Ireland, including my constituency of Upper Bann. Those
organisations have a callous disregard for life. The Chief Constable
has warned that dissident republicans are out to kill his officers in
the Province, even if it means killing innocent civilians with them.
The notion that they have any moral position is preposterous. Those
groups are trying to recruit young disfranchised people from within the
nationalist community to swell their ranks. They are recruiting heavily
among young people in the 18 to 25 age bracket. They are
forcing police officers to leave their homes at a rate of nearly one
every month. Figures released by the PSNI show that between June 2007
and June 2008, some 16 serving officers were advised to leave their
homes because of a direct terrorist
threat. At
the Labour party conference, the Secretary of State warned that the
risk of terrorism in the Province is still very real. The threat
against police officers from
dissident republicans is at its highest in five years. Death threats
have been made against those who work alongside the PSNI—traffic
wardens and those who work in the Northern Ireland Policing Board, such
as civilian guards and technicians—and the Territorial Army. In
my constituency, I have had to work with former Royal Irish Regiment
officers who recently had to be given back their personal weapons. It
has been accepted that the windows and doors of their homes should be
protected because of the serious threat, which is a grave turn of
events. According to
the IMC’s most recent report, republican dissidents are more
active than at any time in the past four and a half years. There must
be a strong security response, which means that there must be full
support from the public, politicians and the Government for the police
in their efforts to deal with the threat. There must be no hiding place
for them. The police in Northern Ireland are not only one of the most
scrutinised forces in the world; they are the most courageous. They
deserve the support of all as they set about policing in the best
interests of all. I hope that all will do their part to help
them. The
people of Northern Ireland are crying out for proper policing. I have
made the point that the police service, whether the former RUC or the
PSNI, are courageous. Both men and women have laid their lives on the
line for the betterment of Northern Ireland, but the people are crying
out for proper policing, and we cannot have a reduction in numbers,
because that would be a total travesty. The people want proper policing
with proper beats on the streets, and we need that. The Government must
ensure that proper resources are available for
that. 7.43
pm
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