The
Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Paul Goggins):
I congratulate the hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) on again
securing the Adjournment debate at the end of the Northern Ireland
Grand Committee. He is absolutely right that policing is a fundamental
part of the present and future in Northern Ireland in terms of stable
and safe communities. It is so much better now that there is support
for policing from all sections of the community. I join him in paying
tribute to police officers of all ranks and in all places in Northern
Ireland for their fantastic work in protecting communities. Policing
can help to shape the future, and I take heart, as I am sure he does,
from the high level of confidence in policing in Northern Ireland. The
latest survey shows 79 per cent. confidence in policing there, and that
is something to build
on. During
the early part of his speech, the hon. Gentleman tempted me into making
a comment about mandatory
coalition—[Interruption.] I will not rise
to the bait, but whatever anyone’s view about mandatory
coalition, it has been essential to get us to the point at which we can
get into serious political debate in Northern Ireland in a way that
everyone can share. History will tell us that it has been an important
stepping stone along the way for however long it may
last. The
hon. Gentleman also mentioned parading, which is a big issue for him,
not least because the Drumcree parade is in his constituency. He has
done a considerable amount of work to try to help to resolve the
difficulties, and I pay tribute to him for that.
The Parades
Commission has a difficult job to do. From everything that I have seen,
it does a good job in a conscientious way. It is not a job that meets
with everybody’s approval. The parading review is moving towards
its final report and recommendations. Our collective hope is that some
way forward can be found that will receive support from all communities
and will give us a stable framework on parading and protesting for the
long term in Northern Ireland that is reasonable and has
everybody’s
support. There
is no question but that the issues mentioned in relation to Drumcree
will need to be resolved at some point. I pay tribute to the efforts
that the hon. Gentleman has made in that regard. He rightly says that
policing will need to face up to the challenges of the future and it
will need to help the people of Northern Ireland do so, too. However, a
lot of the arrangements in respect of policing are already devolved, in
the sense that they are under the direction and control of bodies, such
the Policing Board, for example, which sets so many of the objectives
and the policing plan for the Police Service of Northern Ireland. The
district policing partnerships in every area are also helping to hold
the police to account. Indeed, the DPP, like the Policing Board, now
reflects all sections of the
community. The
hon. Member for South Down, who I thought was here but has recently
left, and others have made great contributions to the Policing Board
and to policing in Northern Ireland at a time when it was not easy for
hon. Members so to do and when that came with considerable risk. Once
again I pay tribute to all those who took those risks in more difficult
times. I
have visited Craigavon, in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, on
a number of occasions and have seen the police station there, with some
tremendous CCTV equipment, which is helping to provide modern support
for policing. I have also met the chairman of the Policing Board, the
district policing partnership and the community safety partnership, and
I must say that the collaboration between those bodies in Craigavon is
second to none and is producing real benefits in community safety and,
particularly, in looking at drugs, which we discussed earlier, and the
conduct of young people. All of that is
important. The
hon. Gentleman said, in a pointed remark that takes us to the heart of
the difficult, complex and challenging job of policing, that on one
hand police have to deal with disorder on the streets and, on the
other, they have to deal with incidents of domestic violence, sexual
crime and so on. The police service has to meet that broad range of
challenges firmly but sensitively. We pay tribute to what it
does. The
hon. Gentleman mentioned a funding crisis. That is not language that I
would choose to use, but I understand why he uses
it— Dr.
William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): What word would you
use?
Paul
Goggins: I will explain. I have said that when the
Policing Board first made its submission under the comprehensive
spending review we were confident that we could meet all its
aspirations. When it revised its estimate of how much it would
need upwards by £350 million, we got within
£88 million of giving it
absolutely everything. Why did we do that? Because we understand how
important it is to ensure that we do everything we can to fund policing
properly. In the course of a year, new pressures come, priorities have
to be made and a key task for the Policing Board, working with the
Chief Constable, is to make sure that that
happens.
David
Simpson: Surely the Minister believes that
£88 million is a significant amount of money. Surely that is
essential for the police service to deliver a proper
service.
Paul
Goggins: In addition to funding the police service, the
Northern Ireland Office also has to fund the Northern Ireland Prison
Service, the probation service and the Forensic Science Northern
Ireland. If the hon. Gentleman suggests that we could have just found
the £88 million, that would have been £88 million less
for some of those services. To get within £88 million on a
£3.3 billion budget was a good result in the current climate and
in the context of the 2007 spending review. In saying that, I am not
denying for a minute that pressures and new challenges arise that have
to be tackled. He mentioned a number of those, such as the hearing loss
claims and the issues to do with pensions.
The hon.
Gentleman also mentioned the transitional allowance. Yes, he and his
party did put pressure on, as did many people, but we took the decision
to suspend the second 12.5 per cent. reduction in the transitional
allowance because it was the right thing to do in view of the current
circumstances and the attacks that police officers are facing, which is
a new pressure that has to be dealt with somehow. What I say to the
him, as I say to others, is that we will work with the Policing Board
and the Chief Constable to try to resolve such issues wherever we can.
The figures quoted in debates and in questions change constantly,
because that is the nature of budgeting in a big organisation, which
this year has a budget of £1.1
billion.
Mark
Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): The Minister has covered a number
of the points that were raised by the hon. Member for Upper Bann, but
he has omitted to refer to his comments on political developments
today. In the context that development, everyone on the Committee has
expressed the hope for positive moves forward in relation to the
devolution of justice and policing. Has the Minister no small concern,
therefore, that the terms and tones in which the hon. Gentleman has
spoken this evening are markedly different from those that were used by
the First Minister today, when he made a joint appearance with the
Deputy First
Minister?
Paul
Goggins: Far be it from me to put a cigarette paper
between the hon. Member for Upper Bann and his leader, but I note the
terms of the statement made earlier by the First Minister and Deputy
First Minister, which will allow the Executive to return to their
proper business of running the Government of Northern Ireland, and to
put in place arrangements for the discharge of policing and justice
functions by the Assembly. That is a balanced programme that
should take us forward, and I rejoice in the positive terms of that
statement. No doubt we will all await further developments and
discussions. I cannot but think that the hon. Member for Upper Bann will
be fully supportive of his party leader.
The hon.
Member for Upper Bann asked about the implications of a freeze on
recruitment. I say two things to him about that: first, it would be a
last resort for resolving any budgetary problems, and we know how
significant that would be; and, secondly, freezing recruitment in the
short term saves very little money. Therefore, if we are seeking to
resolve financial pressures, we cannot resolve a major pressure in that
way in the short term. Perhaps that is something that the Policing
Board will want to discuss with the Chief Constable and the Government,
but it is important to register that reality.
I can give
the hon. Gentleman some good news; I know that he is always happy to
receive good news. There was some speculation in the press about the
Historical Enquiries Team, following comments and decisions by the head
of the HET a few days ago. It was always clear to us that the
implications of following through the Operation Ballast report by the
ombudsman and getting the HET to do that would have resource
implications. It is only in the very recent past that the precise
amount of that resource for this year has been made known to us in any
detail. We have brought forward funding and, in agreement with the
Police Service of Northern Ireland and those involved in the HET, that
funding will be available. Nobody will be laid off and that work will
continue, as I am sure people would expect.
[Interruption.] I am grateful for the welcome that
the hon. Gentleman has given that news.
The hon.
Gentleman mentioned the full-time reserve. The Chief Constable made his
decision about retaining a certain level of full-time reserve because
of the prevailing threat, particularly from dissident republicans. The
hon. Gentleman asked what might happen beyond 2011. The current funding
period takes us to 2011—and who knows? Perhaps even he might
believe that beyond 2011 there might be a different way of constructing
the budget for policing in Northern Ireland. Obviously, whoever is
funding policing in Northern Ireland must listen carefully to the
advice of the Chief Constable, in terms of what he thinks he needs to
be able to continue to do his job.
Finally, I
agree absolutely with the hon. Gentleman’s comments about
dissident republicans and the pernicious influence that they have. They
are targeting police officers and that is unforgivable, deeply
damaging, and the police deserve our full support. As he alluded to,
the way in which they are trying to influence young people to join in
with that destructive activity is unforgivable. We must all do what we
can to ensure that young people can be directed in a positive way. Even
as recently as today, discussions have been going on between my
officials and officials in the office of the First Minister and Deputy
First Minister about what we can do to ensure that we are all working
with young people to point them in the right direction. I am sure that
the hon. Gentleman will concur with that.
The debate
having continued for half an hour,
The
Chairman adjourned the
Committee without Question put, pursuant to the Standing
Order. Adjourned
at four minutes to Eight
o’clock.
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