The
Committee consisted of the following
Members:
Chairman:
Mr.
Peter Atkinson
Ainger,
Nick
(Carmarthen, West and South Pembrokeshire)
(Lab)
Brennan,
Kevin
(Cardiff,
West)
Bryant,
Chris
(Rhondda)
(Lab)
Caton,
Mr. Martin
(Gower)
(Lab)
Clwyd,
Ann
(Cynon Valley)
(Lab)
Crabb,
Mr. Stephen
(Preseli Pembrokeshire)
(Con)
David,
Mr. Wayne
(Caerphilly)
(Lab)
Davies,
Mr. Dai
(Blaenau Gwent)
(Ind)
Davies,
David T.C.
(Monmouth)
(Con)
Flynn,
Paul
(Newport, West)
(Lab)
Francis,
Dr. Hywel
(Aberavon)
(Lab)
Gillan,
Mrs. Cheryl
(Chesham and Amersham)
(Con)
Griffith,
Nia
(Llanelli) (Lab)
Hain,
Mr. Peter
(Neath)
(Lab)
Hanson,
Mr. David
(Delyn)Havard,
Mr. Dai
(Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)
(Lab)
Howells,
Dr. Kim
(Pontypridd)
Irranca-Davies,
Huw
(Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for
Wales)James,
Mrs. Siân C.
(Swansea, East)
(Lab)
Jones,
Mr. David
(Clwyd, West)
(Con)
Llwyd,
Mr. Elfyn
(Meirionnydd Nant Conwy)
(PC)
Lucas,
Ian
(Wrexham) (Lab)
Michael,
Alun
(Cardiff, South and Penarth)
(Lab/Co-op)
Moon,
Mrs. Madeleine
(Bridgend)
(Lab)
Morden,
Jessica
(Newport, East)
(Lab)
Morgan,
Julie
(Cardiff, North)
(Lab)
Murphy,
Mr. Paul
(Secretary of State for
Wales)
Öpik,
Lembit
(Montgomeryshire)
(LD)
Owen,
Albert
(Ynys Môn)
(Lab)
Price,
Adam
(Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr)
(PC)
Pritchard,
Mark
(The Wrekin)
(Con)
Ruane,
Chris
(Vale of Clwyd)
(Lab)
Smith,
John
(Vale of Glamorgan)
(Lab)
Tami,
Mark
(Alyn and Deeside)
(Lab)
Touhig,
Mr. Don
(Islwyn)
(Lab/Co-op)
Williams,
Mr. Alan
(Swansea, West)
(Lab)
Williams,
Mrs. Betty
(Conwy)
(Lab)
Williams,
Hywel
(Caernarfon)
(PC)
Williams,
Mark
(Ceredigion)
(LD)
Williams,
Mr. Roger
(Brecon and Radnorshire)
(LD)
Willott,
Jenny
(Cardiff, Central)
(LD)
Chris Shaw, Mark Oxborough
Committee Clerks
attended
the Committee
Welsh
Grand
Committee
Wednesday 18
June
2008
[Mr.
Peter Atkinson in the
Chair]
Oral
Answers to
Questions
The
Secretary of State was
asked
HMRC
Reorganisation
9
am
1.
Mark
Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): What assessment
he has made of the effects of the reorganisation of Her
Majestys Revenue and Customs offices in Wales; and if he will
make a statement.
[210771]
The
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Huw
Irranca-Davies): My right hon. Friend the Secretary of
State and I fully understand the concerns of those affected by the HMRC
change programme in Wales, and we have conveyedand will
continue to conveythose concerns to Treasury
Ministers.
Mark
Williams: I thank the Minister for that response. This
question is very much in the wake of last weeks announcement
that there will be widespread tax office closures and that the only
remaining office in Ceredigion and Powys will be a much reduced service
in Aberystwyth, which will consist of a skeleton staff dealing with
compliance issues. Is this not just another illustration of the
Government yet again removing vital services that disproportionately
affect rural areas more than others? Is it not the case that that does
not advance the work of the HMRC and flies in the face of the
Assemblys policy, which is to move jobs out of Cardiff and into
the
localities?
Huw
Irranca-Davies: The hon. Gentleman raises an important
point. There is certainly an increasing propensity to move jobs out of
the urban centres and into the rural areas. We have seen much of that
happen since 2003, not least in places such as Pembroke Dock, where I
understand that 351 total jobs, including those with the Department for
Work and Pensions, have been relocated as part of the overall
Government restructuring in that area. There are welcome trends in the
other direction as well, but he raises important matters, and I would
urge all hon. Members concerned to feed into the eight-week
consultation process to make their voices
heard.
Mrs.
Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): I hear what
the Minister says, and he has made representations, but those
representations have not been very successful. There are currently
1,200 Revenue and Customs jobs in Wales, but I understand that the
closures are going to affect areas the length and breadth of
WalesBangor, Brecon, Bridgend, Carmarthen, Haverfordwest,
Merthyr Tydfil, Pembroke Dock, Pontypool, Rhyl and Welshpool. On a day
when we are going to be discussing energy and environmental matters,
will the Minister tell
me what study has been done of the environmental impact on the clients
of Customs and Excise who are now going to have to travel far more
extensively to get the consultation and advice they
need?
Huw
Irranca-Davies: The hon. Lady raises a point about the
environmental impact that has been raised in discussions over quite a
long period. I understand that those issues and concerns have been fed
into the previous HMRC review and will be fed into this one as well,
but it is worth pointing out that, in terms of overall Government
relocation of posts, something like 3,200 have been relocated into
Wales, particularly into areas that traditionally have not benefited
from public service jobs. While this is difficult and
challengingit is challenging across all parts of Wales,
including in my constituencyI take her point, but we are keen
to ensure that the overall trend is towards increasing jobs in these
areas, not diminishing them.
Mrs.
Gillan: The Minister is right: it is challenging, but I
think that is an understatement. Now he says that there are more
Government jobs going into other parts of Wales. It strikes me that
there has not been any joined-up government at all. How can it be cost
effective, good value to the taxpayer or environmentally friendly to
reduce a whole load of jobs down to the centre, into Cardiff and
Swansea, while at the same time pushing out other jobs from other
Departments? Surely the Minister can see that this is neither logical
nor good government.
Huw
Irranca-Davies: We all genuinely believe in joined-up
government, and we have to accept that the thrust of the
Governments initiative has been to try to drive jobs out of the
urban centres and into other areasrural areas, west Wales and
so on. In fact, the figures over the past five or six years will stand
up and show that. However, the importance not only of a debate like
this but of the eight-week consultation period is that hon. Members,
representing the best interests of their constituencies, can feed in
their concerns.
In
respect of environmental impacts and others, during the impact
assessments in those eight weeks, the full range of factors will be
taken into account, including the impact on staff and their travelling,
on customers and on the local economy as well. It is vital that those
views are
heard.
Mr.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): On the HMRC
website, the acting chairman says to the staff and the
public:
We
take our responsibilities seriously; striving to do the right thing for
our customers, our people, our communities and for our environment.
That means...asking ourselves, for instance, how easily people can
understand our communications, how well we look after our staff, how we
are impacting on our local communities and how we can do more to
protect the
environment.
That
rings hollow at the moment in a number of towns up and down Wales,
including Brecon, in my
constituency.
How
much will be saved as a result of the reorganisation? Surely office
space in the more rural towns is cheaper than in the capital, Cardiff.
When we are told that the rural economy must depend on IT and
electronic communications, is not HMRC setting a bad example? We should
be using rural areas and technology to improve the local
economies.
Huw
Irranca-Davies: The hon. Gentleman makes important points,
as others have done, but he would not expect me to take sides with one
hon. Members constituency over another, not least when the cuts
are in various parts of Wales, including my constituency. However, he
makes important points about the proper assessment of the impact of the
closure programme, and he asks about the savings. The purpose behind
the programme is the Gershon review to encourage efficiency and
savings. We cannot escape that fact. Savings would include 12,500 net
staff reductions by 2008 and similar numbers in 2008 to 2011, with
£30 million annual estate savings by April 2008 and an aim of
increased savings of £100 million by 2011. While that
is difficulton a constituency basis and Wales-widewe
cannot avoid the need to act on the Gershon review and to make savings
where we
can.
Defence
Expenditure
2.
Albert
Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): What recent
discussions he has had on levels of defence expenditure in
Wales.
[210772]
The
Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Paul Murphy):
I regularly discuss defence matters, including expenditure in Wales,
with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence and other
Ministers.
Albert
Owen: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that
response. He will be aware of the additional investment in RAF Valley
in my constituency in recent years. The announcement a few weeks ago
about the new fast jet training project, worth some £635
million, is further testament to the strategic importance to defence of
RAF Valley and of Wales. Does he agree that the additional Ministry of
Defence expenditure will be matched by civilian investment in jobs and
opportunities for the future? Is not the next step to train a local
skills base in such areas, so that the local economies can benefit
fully?
Mr.
Murphy: Yes, I very much agree. As was clear from my hon.
Friend the Ministers replies to the first question, there are
swings and roundabouts in how the Government spend money in Wales. If
we add to the £635 million that is being spent on fast jet
training in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys
Môn (Albert Owen) the £11 billion that is being invested
in RAF St. Athan, for the training facilities in both places, that is a
huge vote of confidence by the Government and the Ministry of Defence
in Wales as a place where they can invest money, with both military and
civilian jobs flowing from that. I agree
entirely.
Mrs.
Gillan: On 16 June, the Armed Forces Minister unveiled the
fact that he was going to examine the equipment programme, to look at
the planning assumptions over the next year, therefore causing more
delay to the equipment programme. With the resignation of Lord Drayson
last year and the growing budgetary crisis at the MOD, can the
Secretary of State give an undertaking that nothing in Wales will be
affected by that announcementno contracts will be delayed and
no jobs will be threatened?
Mr.
Murphy: The hon. Lady knows that I cannot give commitments
on behalf of another Department, one way or the other. All I know is
that the Government and the Ministry of Defence in particular have
invested billions of pounds in Wales. On the issue that she raises, I
know, for example, that General Dynamics and other companies in Wales
have an important role to play in the Welsh economy. I know that my
right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence is aware of that.
I know of no plans to stop that
development.
Pharmacy
White
Paper
3.
Mr.
David Jones (Clwyd, West) (Con): What
discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Health on the
implications of the pharmacy White Paper for Wales.
[210773]
The
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Huw
Irranca-Davies): My right hon. Friend has regular
discussions with Cabinet colleagues on a range of issues including
pharmaceutical matters in Wales. I have also recently met Community
Pharmacy Wales to discuss these
issues.
Mr.
Jones: I am glad to hear that the Minister has met
Community Pharmacy Wales. He will know from his meeting of its concerns
that, although the White Paper has produced proposals that it generally
welcomes to expand the services of community pharmacies, there are no
such proposals for Wales. The CPW is concerned that Wales is lagging
far behind Scotland and now England. Will he have words with his
colleagues in the Assembly to convey the concerns of Community Pharmacy
Wales and urge them to ensure that the services offered by Welsh
pharmacies are entirely within
Wales?