Huw
Irranca-Davies: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has
raised those issues directly, or through his Assembly counterparts,
with the Welsh Assembly Government. If he wants to drop me a line or
discuss further with me particular instances, I will be more than
happy. I can bring some good, positive news to the Committee in that
there is good official engagement with the cross-border protocols, with
which we have been actively wrestling for some time. We anticipate that
the protocols between trusts on either side of the border on the way in
which we deal with Welsh patients are working towards a good and
satisfactory resolution in the interests of patients. I understand the
issues that the hon. Gentleman raises—he is doing a good job
representing his constituents—and if he wants to show me
individual examples, I am more than happy to consider
them. Local
Elections8.
David
T.C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): What
discussions he has had with the First Minister on changing the voting
system for local government elections in Wales.
[210778] The
Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Paul Murphy):
I have regular discussions with Ministers on a range of issues,
including matters that affect local government in
Wales.
David
T.C. Davies: I congratulate the Secretary of State on his
recent efforts to ensure that a flawed electoral system is not imposed
on councillors in Wales, who are unwilling to have it anyway. I urge
him to continue to stand up for an electoral system that involves
candidates going out and getting the majority of votes, which delivers
the strongest electoral mandate. Will he continue to make the case
against proportional representation in
Wales?
Mr.
Murphy: I cannot take credit for the decision of the Welsh
Assembly on 11 June, when, in my view, it rightly rejected the system
of a single transferable vote. I will continue to hold that view, and I
am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for reminding the Committee how
flawed a system that
is. Mr.
Don Touhig (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): Proportional
representation produces coalitions born out of backroom deals that
introduce policies that no one has ever voted for, as we well know in
Wales. Will my right hon. Friend bear that in mind if he is faced with
any request from the Liberal Democrats and their allies to pass powers
from Westminster to Cardiff to introduce proportional representation in
local government, which, frankly, we do not want after the Scottish
experience?
Mr.
Murphy: My right hon. Friend may rest assured that he and
I agree entirely on that
matter. Wind
Farms
9.
Dr.
Hywel Francis (Aberavon) (Lab): What recent
discussions he has had with the First Minister on the development of
wind farms in Wales; and if he will make a statement.
[210779] The
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Huw
Irranca-Davies): My right hon. Friend has regular
discussions with the First Minister about a range of issues affecting
Wales, including wind farms.
Dr.
Francis: I thank the Minister for his reply. He will be
aware of the great growth of wind farms, onshore in particular, across
Wales. It is estimated that about a third of the new wind farms in
Wales will be located in my county borough. That has caused great
consternation in many valley areas that have worked hard to improve the
environment. Will he visit my constituency to discuss with local
residents their concerns and to witness the great improvements in
leisure and tourism
facilities?
Huw
Irranca-Davies: I am more than happy to arrange to visit
my hon. Friend’s constituency. His constituency neighbours mine,
and I suspect that some of the proposals might even overshadow my
constituency. I am more than happy to hear the views and concerns of
local residents. Wales is in a prime position in the context of
energy—not simply wind energy, but green and renewable
energies—to lead the nations through our contribution to that
agenda. Mr.
Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) (PC): May I draw the
Minister’s attention to the development called Rhyl flats? I am
fully in favour of wind farms and
renewable development and understand their role in the whole package,
but the people of Colwyn Bay and Rhos-on-Sea were not consulted about
that scheme. The development is nowhere near Rhyl flats, but is nearer
to the bay of Colwyn, where people are up in arms about the whole
thing, giving wind farm development a bad name. It has been done
undemocratically, and I wonder how the licence was granted. I hope that
the Minister will reply to that point in due
course.
Huw
Irranca-Davies: The hon. Gentleman works hard on behalf of
his constituents in pushing that case, but I am advised that not only
was due process properly and adequately followed in the application for
Rhyl flats, but that consent was given only after careful consideration
of all the representations made to Ministers regarding the application.
He will understand that, in my position as a Minister in the Wales
Office and with the consent having been given, it is not for me to
comment, particularly when I am advised that full consideration was
given and due process was followed.
Mr.
Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): I put it to my hon. Friend that,
notwithstanding the points that have been
made, Wales must make its mind up on whether or not we are going to have
clean, green energy. Every local project must be dealt with in terms of
local concerns, but virtually every project—from the Gwynt y
Môr project off the north Wales coast, which would power half
the households in Wales, and the big tidal project across the Severn
estuary to any local project—meets opposition. When are people
going to get real about fighting climate
change?
Huw
Irranca-Davies: My right hon. Friend has made an important
point. It is certainly the case that opposition is always encountered
whenever an application is made, whether for wind energy or biomass,
for a form of renewable energy or for opencast mining, but the argument
must be put out there in the broader context. If we need to keep the
lights on and if we are to achieve our rightly ambitious targets on
cutting carbon emissions, we must make the right choices, which are
sometimes the tough choices. However, it is also right, as my right
hon. Friend has pointed out, that there must be local input to the
process. Local views must be heard, but we cannot ignore the big
decisions.
UK Energy Strategy and its Implications for Wales9.33
am
The
Minister for Energy (Malcolm Wicks): It is a great honour
for me to attend this Committee—a more august Committee than the
Croydon grand committee. It is a great pleasure for me to be here. I
apologise, but with your permission, Mr. Atkinson, I shall
leave at 10.20 am. I am being scrutinised by a Joint Committee on
marine spatial planning, so I am suffering from an embarrassment of
scrutiny this morning—not too much embarrassment, I
hope.
The inquiry
will consider UK energy strategy and, in particular, its implications
for Wales. It might be useful to put it in context by saying that
globally, certainly in Europe and in the UK, we face three major
challenges, the first of which concerns energy supply, and therefore
energy security. We are seeing huge growth in global demand for energy,
fuelled in large part by the great emerging economies of China and
India, but also by other nations. Demand is also rising in much of the
western world.
At a time
when our indigenous energy—oil and gas from the UK continental
shelf in the North sea—is in decline, although it is still a
rich energy resource, we must think through the implications of being a
nation that will import more fossil fuels in the future. In the 21st
century, energy security will increasingly become an important part of
a nation’s security in a world suffering from energy insecurity
at a geopolitical level.
This Sunday,
as the Committee knows, our Prime Minister will attend the conference
in Jeddah in Saudi Arabia, organised on an initiative from King
Abdullah, where we will seek to get a better dialogue between the great
oil and gas producing nations and the great consuming ones.
The second
challenge is climate change. Science dictates that climate change, or
global warming, is undoubtedly the pre-eminent challenge that faces our
planet this century. That is not mere rhetoric; the science base shows
it to be the case. To quote something said by my right hon. Friend the
Member for Neath, we need to get real about tackling climate change. In
the UK, our target is to achieve a 60 per cent. reduction on carbon
emissions by 2050, against what they were in 1990. The Prime Minister
has indicated that, if scientific advice determines it, the figure
could be far higher than 60 per cent. That is probably the most
ambitious target ever set by a UK Government, and it has enormous
implications. The Climate Change Bill, which is going through
Parliament, will enable a committee to advise us all on the five-yearly
targets that we need.
The first two
challenges are about energy security and climate change, and the third
is about fairness and justice. That has implications both domestically
in Wales, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland and internationally.
We must recognise that many of the peoples of the world are energy
poor. They are a million miles away from any of the comforts of
electricity and energy that many of us in this room, simply and
rightly, take for granted. In our drive towards sustainable fuels in
the west, we must ensure that we do not make the lives of poor people
in other countries even poorer by
giving incentives to the production of biofuels, for example, over and
above food crops. We must look at sustainability in a sophisticated and
comprehensive way. We must also
recognise that, here at home, many people on low incomes, families with
children and, in particular, the elderly may think that global warming
would be a fine thing in their living rooms and bedrooms during winter.
I worry greatly about how rising energy costs impact on our fuel
poverty targets. We must all redouble our efforts to tackle what we now
term as fuel poverty. The Government are tackling the issue in a
variety of ways, with energy efficiency programmes and social security
measures such as winter fuel payments. However, I am not complacent
about that at a time of rapidly rising costs.
In the light
of those three challenges, we need a comprehensive strategy, and I
shall set out the main bullet points. First, any sensible strategy
should start with energy efficiency and trying to reduce energy demand.
The world, including this part, wastes a huge amount of energy in our
industrial processes, transport systems and buildings, including our
homes. That has implications for engine efficiency, the development of
new vehicles and how we can move towards the construction of
zero-carbon housing, which is a Government objective. It also has
implications for our lighting systems and electrical appliances. Energy
efficiency should be top of any sensible agenda.
Secondly, we
must bring on cleaner technologies, so that the world can burn fossil
fuels efficiently without harming our precious planet. That is why the
development of carbon capture and storage technologies is so important
and why the Government have made this a lead nation in the
demonstration project on carbon capture and storage. That obviously has
implications for Wales, where indigenous coal is still an important
part of the energy mix. Indeed, the coal industry still employs between
700 and 800 people in Wales.
Thirdly, we
need to develop renewables. The UK Government are signed up to the
European target that 20 per cent. of Europe’s energy should come
from renewable sources by 2020. That does not mean 20 per cent. of
electricity generation, but 20 per cent. of all energy generation, so
we must be very serious about renewables, as we try to hit a UK target
that is likely to be about 15 per cent. That is a major challenge and
has implications for a range of renewable technologies, particularly
offshore wind and the development of new technologies for wave and
tidal power. I recognise that there is a special agenda item before the
Committee about the Severn barrier, about which I will be pleased to
say more if
questioned. Fourthly,
and more controversially, we require a new generation of civil nuclear
reactors. The Government believe that that is important, so we have
given a green light to the private market to come forward with
proposals for civil nuclear power, and I am obviously interested in and
aware of the issues in Anglesey on that
matter. Finally,
although certainly not with regard to our priorities, there are the
social policy aspects that I have alluded to. At a time when
constituents face rapidly rising prices, how can we develop and improve
the measures for protecting the most vulnerable people from the ravages
of the winter, when they face high electricity and gas
bills?
Mrs.
Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): I thank the
Minister for attending the Committee, making that statement and sending
me an advance copy of it, although the actual statement that he gave to
the Committee bore little or no relation to the document that I was
sent.
Nick
Ainger (Carmarthen, West and South Pembrokeshire) (Lab):
Check against
delivery.
For
generations, Wales has been at the forefront of energy supply in the
UK, given its natural resources and the hard work and efforts of its
people. We have been able to reap benefits from coal and water and
nuclear power stations, through the ports through which we trade and
now through wind, wave and tidal energy. Those are the renewable
sources for future energy security, and they come at a lower
environmental price than that which we are currently paying through
global
warming.
The
Chairman: Order. We are asking
questions.
Mrs.
Gillan: The Minister has quite rightly made a general and
wide-ranging introduction, and I should like to ask a set of questions
that relate more specifically to Wales. First, the Minister mentioned
fairness and the affordability of energy, but having cut the Warm Front
budget just as Energywatch has said that 4.5 million people in the UK,
including many in Wales, are living in fuel poverty, does he not agree
that the Government are failing to tackle that challenge?
Energy is
partly devolved in Wales, and a few days ago the Assembly Minister,
Jane Hutt, demanded a meeting to discuss energy generation of over 50
MW, so will the Minister state clearly whether the Government intend to
pass those powers to the Assembly?
The Minister
mentioned the Severn barrage project, in relation to which he is having
an evaluation carried out and a public consultation will start in 2010.
Alongside that evaluation, are the Government evaluating alternatives,
such as tidal lagoons, and what evaluation has he made of the La Rance
project and the potential environmental impact of the Severn barrage
with reference to the experience at the La Rance project?
Will the
Minister update us on the progress at the biomass plant at Port Talbot,
which I understand could account for 70 per cent. of Wales’s
renewable target? Is that project on target and what plans does he have
to extend that technology to other parts of Wales? What is the status
of the Anglesey marine farm project for 10 marine turbines, and what is
the latest update on the liquefied natural gas terminal in
Pembrokeshire?
The Minister
has mentioned that, after a period of dithering, the Government have
given the go ahead on nuclear power. Will he give us some
details—[Interruption.]
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