Malcolm
Wicks: I am afraid it has to be standard answer No.1,
namely that tax is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of
the Exchequer. We need to bear in mind that while certain tax revenues
are increasing, others are—I guess—declining because of
the impacts on other parts of the economy. The situation is more
complicated than the hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire has
suggested. On fuel duty, the Chancellor has made it clear that, having
postponed the 2p increase in tax in April, he will look at the
situation going forward to October to see where we might be in terms of
the price of a barrel of
oil. Mr.
Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): I ask my right hon. Friend to
press ahead with the Severn barrage assessments. There are two points
here. First of all, lagoons will produce perhaps half the power of a
barrage. Secondly, regarding intrusive marine activity and the benefits
of having the barrage in place, it is true that the wetlands and the
area’s special environment need to be looked at and assessed
carefully. However, there will be no bird life or wetland life if
climate change wreaks its terrible havoc, as it undoubtedly will. The
barrage is by far the biggest project in the UK, and probably in
Europe, and we ought to give it our continuing
support.
Malcolm
Wicks: Indeed, and we do, subject to the careful
assessments that I mentioned. My right hon. Friend is absolutely right.
To be blunt, I was sad when I heard that the Royal Society for the
Protection of Birds has already reacted against the Severn barrage. It
clearly does not understand my right hon. Friend’s point that
unless we are prepared to take courageous action on climate change, the
devastation of species will be truly enormous. It is the duty of a
sensible NGO, supported by the public, occasionally to say yes to
projects and not always to seek the comfort zone of saying no to a
barrage, no to a wind farm, no to this and no to that. There needs to
be responsibility and seriousness in all organisations, especially
environmental
ones. Adam
Price (Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr) (PC): Underground
coal gasification and the extraction of coal-bed methane are now used
in coalfields throughout the world. Does the Minister agree that the
time is right to apply those technologies to the 300 years of reserves
that still exist in the south Wales coalfield, particularly with the
possibility of using them in conjunction with in situ carbon capture
and storage which could turn them into the ultimate in clean coal
technology?
Malcolm
Wicks: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point, and
it is encouraging that technological developments and actual practice
in different parts of the world are enabling new possibilities. There
is still a huge amount of coal in Wales and other parts of the United
Kingdom. At the moment, however, despite high prices, the economics of
new deep mining are not on the right side of the
balance sheet. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we are looking at those
technologies, and I am happy to discuss them with
him. Albert
Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): I welcome the
Minister’s statement. He and I were both on the Energy Bill, and
I congratulate him on taking this big measure through. He is right to
tell the Committee that the two big issues are energy security and
climate change, and he is also right to highlight fairness and justice.
In response to the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire, he mentioned
regional variations in price. He will also be aware of
Energywatch’s report into Welsh homes paying more for their
fuel. Will he urge the regulator specifically to look at that matter
and stop Welsh consumers from being ripped
off?
Malcolm
Wicks: I will certainly put to the independent regulator
the points that the hon. Gentleman has made, following a similar point
made earlier.
Mr.
David Jones (Clwyd, West) (Con): I am sure that the
Minister will recall the trenchant criticism expressed by the Welsh
Affairs Select Committee in its report on energy, over the consent
process for the Rhyl Flats wind farm. This is now in the course of
construction, although it is not being constructed anywhere near the
Rhyl flats—it is being constructed on the Constable bank. The
Committee described the application as “misleading” and
concluded: “We
look to the UK Energy Minister to acknowledge the shortcomings of the
consultation process on this occasion, and set out clear, unambiguous
guidelines for the accurate description of wind farm locations for the
future.”
Will
the Minister say whether he has issued such guidelines, and does he
acknowledge the shortcomings of that consultation
process?
Malcolm
Wicks: The hon. Gentleman and I discussed the matter on
another occasion. I have looked at the process, and I am satisfied that
it was appropriate. Obviously, we try to learn lessons from projects
all the time. The matter is controversial, but I think that the right
decision was
made. Nia
Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): What, in addition to the
discussions on feed-in tariffs, is my hon. Friend doing to enable
people to link up to the grid a lot more easily to engage in
microgeneration as individuals or community groups? At the moment,
there seem to be considerable difficulties in that stage of the
process.
Malcolm
Wicks: It is very important that those who invest in
microgeneration have the ability—should the situation
arise—to feed their electricity back into the grid. Going
forward, some of these issues around the grid will become very
important, because by 2020 35 or 40 per cent. of all electricity in
Britain might come from renewables. There are particular challenges on
microgeneration, and we need to ensure that the supply companies offer
a reasonable price to microgenerators—they currently offer a
price, which we are keeping a careful eye
on.
Lembit
Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): With the centre for
alternative technology based in my constituency, I am sure the Minister
agrees that no area has done more than Montgomeryshire to support the
development of renewable energy. What support can the Minister give
to my constituents who are opposed to wind turbines on the basis that
wind farms create ecological damage through their construction and
operation and that they are not a reliable form of large-scale energy
production due to the vagaries of the
wind?
Malcolm
Wicks: It is important that every application for a wind
farm—whether large or small, and whether onshore or
offshore—is considered properly. It is also important that we
have a planning regime that allows for local consideration. As we heard
earlier, not everyone will be satisfied by the decisions. Some of the
bigger projects have come to me following appeal, and on one important
occasion I actually said no. That decision was controversial for the
environmental groups, but I thought it was right. On another occasion,
I said yes, which other groups found controversial. Each application
must be considered on its merits. I do not think that the hon.
Gentleman is saying that we should say no to wind farms, and we need to
approach the matter with some
sensitivity. David
T.C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): When the Minister was in
Riyadh, was he not told that there is no problem in producing 88
million barrels a day to meet world demand? The supply is there; the
problem is the collapse of the dollar and the rush into commodities.
One solution would be to change the fiscal regime in countries such as
the United Kingdom, where there is more oil waiting to be discovered,
in order to allow the independent oil companies to go out there and get
it for us.
Malcolm
Wicks: We get a great deal of tax revenue from the oil
industry. Any responsible commentator—I am sure whether the hon.
Gentleman is responsible—would want, if he had more time, to
discuss what public programmes would need to be cut if we were to
reduce tax, or how to raise tax in other areas. I am sure that the hon.
Gentleman will have an opportunity to set out his position in
future.
Mark
Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): The Minister rightly drew
attention to sensitivity on the development of biofuels and the global
food supply. I am looking at the clock, Mr. Atkinson, and I
know that do not have long, but I wish to probe a little further on the
Government’s intentions on biofuels, not least because, as the
Minister will be aware, Wales is leading the world in research on
biofuels at the university of
Aberystwyth.
Malcolm
Wicks: The Gallagher review will report shortly on
biofuels. We will have to wait for that report and for the Government
response. Surely, the sensible position is that we should not go
overboard and say no to biofuels, which are an important part of a
clean and green energy policy. However, recent times show that we need
to be sensitive. To put it bluntly, there is no point in me and the
hon. Gentleman satisfying our environmental consciences by filling up
our motorcars with a proportion of biofuels, if sustainability and
perhaps climate experience a devastating effect elsewhere in the
world.
Mark
Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): Commenting on the Severn
estuary, the chairman of Natural England
said: “The
mudflats, sandbanks, rocky platforms and saltmarsh of the Severn
Estuary comprise one of the largest mosaics of habitat
of their type in Britain, supporting important populations of waterfowl,
invertebrates and large numbers of migratory
fish.” As
the Minister has rightly pointed out, the Severn estuary is one of the
most important ecological environmental and sites in the United
Kingdom.
I am sure
that the Minister did not mean to attack the RSPB, which is one of the
largest membership organisations in Wales. All hon. Members, both on
the Shropshire side of the border and in Wales, know that people travel
to the Severn estuary from all over the world to see Welsh wildlife and
birds, including migrating birds. I believe that the barrage will
destroy those habitats and that wildlife, and that it has the potential
to bring about an ecological scar that will straddle Wales and England.
I hope that the Minister will
reflect—
The
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Huw
Irranca-Davies): Where is the
question?
Mark
Pritchard: It is coming. I hope that the Minister will
reflect on his comments about the RSPB and work with such organisations
rather than criticising them.
Malcolm
Wicks: It is because I have huge respect for such
organisations that we need to tell each other the truth. For any
organisation concerned with the protection of species immediately to
come out against the project is ridiculous, because that position takes
no account of the devastation to species that we heard about earlier.
We need to take a more balanced approach, but we are taking the
environmental assessments on the proposed project very
seriously. Chris
Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Off the north Wales coast,
there is one working wind farm at North Hoyle, there is one under
construction off the Rhyl flats and one is being considered at
Gwynt-y-Môr by BERR. I switched on the 30 turbines at North
Hoyle off the coast at Rhyl and Prestatyn, and I pay tribute to the
work of npower in the consultation process in my community. The
Gwynt-y-Môr project will have 200 turbines and could power half
of Wales. Will the Minister tell the Committee the likely time scale
for a decision on that
project?
Malcolm
Wicks: I probably need to be careful about that matter, as
it is before us at present. We need to conduct the necessary
assessments, but we will try to make a decision in a timely fashion. We
will alert Members of Parliament to our decision as soon as
possible. I
have figures on wind farms in Wales for this month, June 2008—my
officials are fantastically up to date. Looking at onshore wind farms,
25 are now operational in Wales, three are under construction, 11 have
been consented and 18 are in planning, making a total of 57. Offshore,
one is operational, one is under construction and one has been
consented, which shows momentum. We need to be careful on environmental
assessments, because we want public opinion with us on the issue. I say
that knowing that 80 per cent. of people in surveys are in favour of
renewables, although I also know that locally, understandably, such
projects can be
controversial.
Future of Energy in
Wales[Relevant
Documents: The Third Report from the Welsh Affairs Committee, Session
2005-2006, on Energy in Wales, HC 876, and the Government's Response
thereto, HC 1656, Session 2005-06; and the First Report from the Welsh
Affairs Committee, Session 2007-2008, on Energy in Wales: follow-up
inquiry, HC 177, and the Government’s Response thereto, HC 435,
Session
2007-08] 10.21
am
The
Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Paul Murphy):
I beg to
move, That
the Committee has considered the matter of the future of energy in
Wales. To
begin with, Mr. Atkinson, may I say how great a pleasure it
is to serve under your chairmanship? I understand that you also chair
the Northern Ireland Grand Committee. I would be interested to compare
notes at the end of the sitting about how the Irish and the Welsh
fare. I
also thank my hon. Friend the Minister for Energy, who has had to go
off to another parliamentary Committee, for taking the time to address
our Committee and for delivering an interesting and frank assessment of
the choices that our country faces over future energy needs. This is an
interesting way to use the Welsh Grand Committee, which is different
from our normal pattern of meetings. Energy is obviously of interest to
every single member of the Committee, but opening the debate in this
style is an excellent innovation.
I recall from
about 50 years ago, or perhaps a little more now—those Committee
members who are around my age will similarly recall this—that,
although we never called it energy, our fathers and uncles worked in
the energy industry, because they worked in coal. If they were employed
in our ports, in south Wales in particular, they were working in the
energy industry. Let us also recall how people’s energy was
used, certainly in the mining valleys of south Wales, again 50-odd
years ago. In my grandfather’s house in Abersychan there was no
electricity—there was a gas mantle, a single gas ring and a
black-leaded range for all the cooking and
heating. Chris
Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab):
Luxury.
Mr.
Murphy: Perhaps that did not happen elsewhere—they
are much posher in north Wales than we are in the
south. Something
like 200,000 people worked underground in Wales, producing the energy
for the world—for ships, factories and homes—but half a
century later the world has changed beyond recognition. As evidenced by
the questions to the Minister for Energy, that enormous progress has
brought with it the problems of climate change. The comparison between
half a century ago and now is particularly interesting for those of us
who represent Welsh constituencies. Nowhere near the same number of
people work in the energy sector providing jobs for Welsh people, and
we do not have the same reliance on a single source of energy. However,
the problems that affect our climate are as important in Wales as they
are in other parts of the United Kingdom.
Mr.
Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) (PC): I am following
the right hon. Gentleman’s speech carefully. Does he agree that,
in Wales, we are well placed for microgeneration as well? It is not a
new fad. A man from Llanuwchllyn spent a lifetime a century ago
creating hydroelectric power systems on farms and in homes in
mid-Wales, literally hundreds of which are still working flat out
today. We should therefore think about that aspect when considering the
whole
mix.
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