Mr.
Murphy: Indeed, I was coming to that very point. During
the past decade or a little more than that, we have seen a change in
how our country is governed—the change involves the Welsh
Assembly, with its powers and interest in energy matters, coupled with
what local authorities and the United Kingdom Government do in respect
of energy production—which means that, in a sense, we are
blessed with a greater diversity of experimentation in Wales. We
certainly have more interest in energy matters, because more public
bodies deal with the production of energy and with its assessment, and
because people in Wales are naturally interested in finding different
ways in which to deal with such
issues. As
was made clear in the question to the Minister for Energy, we clearly
have concerns about how the production of energy can affect our
environment and ecology. My right hon. Friend the Member for Neath was
right to say that we cannot run away from the tough decisions that have
to be made, some of which people agree with and others of which people
disagree with, so matters are not easy. However, there are decisions
that we have to take as a Government, an Assembly and a people that
will produce sufficient energy to ensure that those who follow us on
this planet can live in the way in which we have been used to living
for the past
decades. Mrs.
Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): Does the
Secretary of State therefore believe in encouraging widespread
microgeneration and feed-in
tariffs?
Mr.
Murphy: Yes, we must embrace all aspects to ensure that we
increase energy production. If we—a village or town—can
do that on a small scale and provide our own energy, there is nothing
wrong with that. As for what is happening in Port Talbot, which is in
the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon, it is
important that the biomass idea is developed. I did not realise that
Aberystwyth university was so significant in research into biofuels,
but diversity is the key and we must all encourage
it.
Lembit
Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): I am encouraged by the
Minister’s response about feed-in tariffs. Is he aware that the
industry is frustrated that the Government have not taken a more
strategic lead by requiring the introduction of smart meters to make
the feed-in tariff system work? What comfort and support can he give to
those of us who have been campaigning for a long time for the
Government to provide a playing field to allow the sector to do the
rest?
Mr.
Murphy: I cannot give any more comfort than the Minister
for Energy gave, since I am not responsible for such matters. However,
I hear what the hon. Gentleman has said and will obviously pass on his
comments to my colleague.
Albert
Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): My right hon. Friend might
be aware that the Assembly has some pilot schemes on smart metering.
Until we know the results of those schemes, it will be hard to move
forward. We want the smartest of smart meters, so that the system does
the job. Consider the case of Mr. Betamax, who introduced an
early product that was suddenly replaced by new technology. The issue
is serious. The system must work rather than just rolling out the
meters
quickly.
Mr.
Murphy: Yes. A couple of months ago, my hon. Friend and I
met representatives of energy companies in the United Kingdom to talk
precisely about smart metering and how individual households can work
out how much energy they use and how much they can save. While we are
on the matter, it is important to understand a point that has not been
pressed in the past hour, which is the importance of the conservation
of energy and of using less energy.
In my
constituency and that of my hon. Friend, two significant firms deal
with the insulation of houses and businesses. I visited the company in
my constituency recently, and the way in which the amount of energy
that is needed can be reduced, particularly for older people, and the
way in which money can be saved is hugely significant. When one adds to
that the points about winter fuel payments and all of those sorts of
things, it is important to look at fuel poverty and also fuel
conservation in exactly the same
way. Mr.
Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): I am grateful to my right hon.
Friend. He is making an excellent speech, and I am sorry to interrupt
him and take him to the question of energy costs. Will he take up with
the Chancellor the proposal put to me by a local haulier, John Pearce
Glynneath Ltd, which is facing astronomic fuel costs? The company has
been built up since 1973 and now employs 70 people. It has laid off
four workers, and it plans to lay off another four if things continue
as they are going, because the company has incurred an additional
£3,900 a week in extra fuel costs since mid-April, which is
serious. There is still a demand for its haulage business, but it must
turn the business away. The Treasury should consider that
company’s proposal to reduce fuel duty for commercial companies
and to increase VAT, which would allow the Treasury to reclaim the
difference and stay in balance. Of course, the cost would be passed on
to retail customers, and we would have to consider the consequences,
but it would save jobs and keep the wheels of the economy
turning.
Mr.
Murphy: I very much take my right hon. Friend’s
point. In fact, two weeks ago my hon. Friend the Minister for Energy
met representatives from the haulage industry in south and west Wales,
who raised concerns about fuel duty through cabotage in addition to
other issues that I am sure the Chancellor is aware of. I will ensure
that a specific Welsh case is made to the Chancellor about the problems
that hauliers and other businesses in Wales face as a result of the
huge increases in oil prices to which my hon. Friend the Minister for
Energy has
referred. Mr.
Don Touhig (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): A moment ago, my right
hon. Friend mentioned the plant in his constituency that produces
fibres that people use to
insulate their homes, which is especially important for pensioners. Does
he agree that the fuel supply companies, which are currently ripping
off the people of Wales, should be making a contribution to help older
people insulate and protect their homes? Will the Government push hard
with the regulator to get those who are milking the people of Wales for
profit to make a contribution, so that the people in Wales, especially
older people, are better cared for and have more efficient ways of
saving energy in their
homes.
Mr.
Murphy: My hon. Friend the Minister for Energy mentioned
Ofgem, and Members made points about Ofgem to him, so it is important
that the general points to which my right hon. Friend the Member for
Islwyn has referred are raised with the energy companies, that there is
a specific Welsh dimension to that, as people pay more dearly for their
energy in south Wales and in Wales generally, and that there is a duty
on an independent regulator to look at the precise issues that he has
raised. Those companies can help by ensuring that they work closely
with insulation companies and others companies in the country to help
people who cannot afford high energy
prices.
Mrs.
Gillan: The Secretary of State is right that the
Government should consider what they can do to help. He has mentioned
smart meters that will assist in feed-in tariffs, and he has clearly
indicated his support for them. Will he speak to his colleagues about
that, because I understand that there has been reluctance to support
smart meters during the passage of the Energy Bill and think that it is
important that the Welsh dimension on that is put to his colleagues in
the Energy Department? I hope that he will undertake to raise that
specific point on the Energy
Bill.
Mr.
Murphy: I do not want to interfere with the legislative
process of a Bill that is not my responsibility, but I merely say to
the hon. Lady that my hon. Friend the Minister for Energy and I met the
Energy Retail Association, which made a fair point about the importance
of smart metering. It will be hugely significant if individual
households can help themselves, and the new technologies can bring that
about, so we will certainly pick up those points.
Another good
way in which the Assembly Government and the Government are working
together relates to how all those factors are taken into account when
new houses are built. The low carbon buildings programme in Wales, for
example, has received £1 million from the UK Government and
£1 million from the Welsh Assembly Government to look at how new
houses can be the most energy-efficient homes that we can devise and at
other ways in which we can save
money. The
Severn barrage was raised on a number of occasions during the course of
the questions to my hon. Friend the Minister for Energy, and I support
the concept of a barrage. Obviously, we must take the ecological
factors raised by the hon. Member for The Wrekin into
account—they are important, but they must be balanced up. My
right hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn was correct in saying that if
climate change gets out of control, it will mean the infinite
destruction of species in our world, and those things must be balanced
up.
Some hon.
Members raised the issue of lagoons. I am not an expert on such
matters, but I know that if there are other ways in which we can ensure
the supply of energy and balance up the ecological factors, we should
look at them. For example, if a project could meet 5 per cent. of the
UK’s energy demands in an entirely green and clean way, which,
incidentally, might also provide a base on which trains could go across
the Severn, we should look at it. The issue at the moment is about
going further in examining the possibilities and viability of a Severn
barrage, and I am sure that most members of the Committee agree that we
should look very carefully at that as a means of getting more energy
for our country.
Chris
Ruane: Mention has been made today about the Welsh
perspective on traditional industries such as coal, gas, nuclear power
and oil. We have also talked about renewables—microgeneration,
hydroelectric power, biofuels, onshore and offshore wind farms, tidal
empowerment, the barrage, solar panels and insulation. The one big area
of energy that has been left out, and about which there is a Welsh
perspective and dimension, is nuclear fusion. The OpTIC centre in St.
Asaph in my constituency is the third biggest optoelectronics cluster
in the world and plays an important role in developing fusion. Fusion
can be delivered by magnets or lasers, and the OpTIC centre plays a
role in that. I invite my right hon. Friend to visit the centre and see
the excellent work going on there.
Mr.
Murphy: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that. I
believe that my peripatetic friend, the Under-Secretary of State for
Wales, has visited the plant, and I would certainly like to come and
look at the work that it does.
That brings
me to the issue of nuclear power—I am in favour of it. We need a
balanced and diverse range of energy sources, and nuclear power plays
an important part in that. Nuclear power is green; of course it must be
safe; and we must look at how to deal with the waste. In terms of the
effect on the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys
Môn, for example, it is a hugely important factor not only in
producing energy but in creating jobs. I believe that more skills, jobs
and other benefits will come if we look at the issue of nuclear power.
The only way to deal properly with the issue of energy is to have
diverse energy sources—otherwise we will fail. It cannot be one
or the other, it has to be many. There must be a diversity of clean,
green and sustainable
sources.
Lembit
Öpik: I am aware that the Labour party, the
Conservatives and Plaid Cymru all support the creation of new nuclear
power stations. Does the Secretary of State agree that this time the
Government must ensure that the private sector covers commissioning,
operational and decommissioning costs? Will he give the Committee an
assurance that there will not be a subsidy for nuclear power such as
that over the past 50 years, which has run into billions of
pounds?
Mr.
Murphy: The development of nuclear power would have to be
sustained and paid for by the private sector, which is very much part
of the Government’s
policy. Obviously, the Government take a huge interest in not only the
production of energy, but how waste is dealt with and issues of energy
security. I do not deny that those issues are important. Whatever
method we use to produce energy will always create some difficulties
and problems that must be dealt with. That might involve the Severn
barrage and ecology, nuclear power and waste or the obvious points
about coal and so on. We must look at all those matters or we will not
get energy for generations to
follow. David
T.C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Once again, I welcome what
the Secretary of State is saying—it is becoming a worrying
habit. What does he think that Liberal Democrat Members would do to
power Wales, when they do not support wind farms—particularly in
their own constituencies—and nuclear power? What does he think
would happen to Wales if we had no sources of power to generate
electricity?
The
Chairman: Order. I do not think that the Secretary of
State is competent to comment on Liberal Democrat
policy.
Mr.
Murphy: There is not much policy to comment on, but that
is another issue. I agree with the points made by the hon. Member for
Monmouth. Mark
Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): I am grateful for the
Secretary of State’s comments on nuclear energy, which I agree
with. The only shame is that the Government took too long to make the
decision, so we will have an energy gap. Following last week’s
statement in the House by the Secretary of State for Environment, Food
and Rural Affairs on managing radioactive waste safely, will the new
Infrastructure Planning Commission under the Planning Bill take the
decision on where radioactive waste might be sited, or will that be
done through the usual planning consultation process? I wonder whether
the Secretary of State would like to assure the people of Wales that
nuclear waste will not be put in old deep-cast mines in Wales and that
local decision makers will have a say and will not be overridden by the
new
IPC.
Mr.
Murphy: The commission will include representatives
nominated by the Welsh Assembly, which will, I hope, give it an ability
to consider Welsh issues in a special way. I do not want to get into
the position of giving assurances. I have already been asked to give
assurances on behalf of my right hon. Friends the Chancellor of the
Exchequer and the Secretaries of State for Environment, Food and Rural
Affairs and for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform. I take the
point that the hon. Member for The Wrekin has made, and I will take it
back to my colleagues in
government.
Albert
Owen: On safe nuclear generation, the Secretary of State
will be aware that Anglesey Aluminium in my constituency was built at
the same time as the Wylfa nuclear power station for an obvious reason,
namely a continuous supply of electricity. Only last week, Anglesey
Aluminium had a very serious fire. It was without electricity for four
hours, and almost two thirds of the
plant was closed down as a consequence, involving millions of pounds of
repair work. Does that not make the point that we need those types of
industry? If we do not have them, we will only import products from
abroad. We need to produce products in Wales and we need that
continuous supply of electricity. Safe nuclear power is the way
forward, and the infrastructure is in place in those large
areas. The
Liberal Democrats on Anglesey support nuclear power. They have two
county councillors, one of whom is the chairman, campaigning actively
for a Wylfa B, so now all the parties have come on board in Anglesey,
and I am pleased to have led that
campaign.
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