Mr.
Murphy: I am pleased that my hon. Friend has led that
campaign. In response to the point about assurances on safety raised by
him and the hon. Member for The Wrekin, nuclear power has to be safe,
whether we are talking about waste disposal, energy security in terms
of being safe from terrorist attack or whatever. Those important issues
inevitably need to be addressed, but the main message from this
Committee today must be that we are interested in diversity, safety,
tackling climate change and ensuring that our more vulnerable people
can pay their energy bills. Hardly anything is more important at the
moment than dealing with the enormously significant issue of how we get
energy for our
people. 10.44
am
Mrs.
Gillan: May I start on a note of agreement? I agree with
the concluding remark by the Secretary of State. His last sentence
summed up what we all feel about future energy policy, whether in Wales
or other parts of the United
Kingdom. The
format for today’s sitting of the Welsh Grand Committee was an
experiment that we discussed together away from the Committee. I want
to put on record that I support inviting Ministers to this Committee to
give evidence. Judging by the assent that I am seeing around the Room,
I hope that I am speaking for both sides of the Committee. If Ministers
are willing to come and participate, I cannot promise that it will
always be pleasant, but we will know that the voice of Wales is writ
large across all Departments. It is often difficult to explain to
people that under the devolution settlement the Wales Office and the
Opposition parties that speak on Wales have to cover an enormously
broad area of subject material. The opportunity for Welsh members of
the Committee to hear from Ministers and question them is invaluable. I
hope that we can discuss through the usual channels how to facilitate
more Committees of this
nature.
Chris
Ruane: We cannot hear
you.
Mrs.
Gillan: I am sorry, but I am slightly deaf so I cannot
judge the tone of my voice. That is unfortunate, but perhaps the sound
system people can deal with
it. I
ask the Secretary of State to pass on my thanks to the Minister for
Energy for coming to the Committee, although I hope that on future
occasions we can have the full hour usually accorded to
statements. All
Committee members accept that we face enormous challenges. Over the
next 15 years, the UK will require about 25 GW of new electricity
generation capacity. All
but one of our nuclear power reactors, which generate 19 per cent. of
the UK’s requirements, will come offline in that time. While it
is available in large quantities, coal is currently a fairly dirty form
of energy, which is unacceptable given the level of carbon emissions
produced in the long term. Gas, while cleaner, is increasingly sought
from abroad, and our stocks in the continental shelf are dwindling. We
are likely to be reliant on carbon technologies for many years to come,
so we have some important matters to
address. Like
the Secretary of State, when I started my rough preparation for this
speech I remembered my life 50 years ago in south Wales. There are some
contrasts to be made. Today, despite the escalating costs and the
issues with energy, we take energy for granted. I do not know about
you, Mr. Atkinson, but I am just as guilty as everybody
else. If I am cold, I turn the central heating up a notch; if I am hot,
I put on the air
conditioning.
Chris
Ruane: Would the hon. Lady consider the advice of the
former Conservative MP, Edwina Currie, who advised pensioners who felt
cold to put on an extra jumper or
cardigan?
Mrs.
Gillan: I have never been responsible for any of that
lady’s pronouncements, and I do not intend to take on that
mantle of responsibility now. I just hope that those jumpers were made
from Welsh
wool. Our
homes and offices are full of electronic equipment, which is
permanently on in most cases—at best, it is left on stand-by. We
leave rooms and leave on the lights, the fire and the heating. We do
not have respect for our energy. I remember 50 years ago in Llandaff in
south Wales, nobody would leave a room in my home without turning the
light off, and the fire would not be lit until it was very cold. We
even used to plan car journeys quite
carefully.
The Secretary
of State and I are of a similar age. Although younger members of the
Committee are laughing, there used to be a respect for energy that does
not apply today. I do not want to hark back to those days because
technological advances have brought amazing improvements to all our
lives. However, as we now know that energy is not boundless and that it
comes from finite resources, we need desperately to revive in our
community that respect for energy and where it comes from. Our respect
must be for the limits of supply, the cost of consumption and the
implications of its use. The Minister for Energy and the Secretary of
State alluded to our three main aims and there is no difference between
our views on those. They must be energy security, reducing carbon
emissions and affordable food bills for
all. We
are fortunate to have a mixture of energy production facilities in
Wales such as coal, nuclear, hydroelectric, gas and wind turbines. Our
ports are also important in importing fuel. The diversity of supply in
Wales contributes to the security of the whole UK as well as delivering
economic and employment-related advantages locally. These challenges
that face the UK face us specifically in Wales. It is important that we
ensure that the two areas of Government in Wales that are responsible
for energy policy work together. We need the Assembly and Parliament to
work closely on strategic policies to secure our future.
Although the
Secretary of State has made it quite clear that he has no intention of
passing down any further powers when it comes to energy, it is
important
that the two institutions have a good working relationship and ensure
that we move forward together now that that has been made very clear by
the Labour Government. While on the
subject, may I remark on the role that the Select Committee on Welsh
Affairs has played? It has done some excellent work on energy and has
received little mention so far, except from my hon. Friend the Member
for Clwyd, West, who quoted directly from one of its reports. The
Select Committee has an ongoing role to play. I believe it has produced
two reports and there have been two responses from Government. I hope
it will be taken into consideration that that investigation and
dialogue should also
continue.
Albert
Owen: The hon. Lady makes two important points about
working together, but does local government not have a role as well?
Would it not be advantageous to areas if they had as part of their
local development plans an energy policy as well as an environmental
policy, so that development could happen in future?
I also remind her that
hon. Members from all parties who serve on the Select Committee have
agreed to be pro-nuclear in
Wales.
Mrs.
Gillan: The hon. Gentleman has taken the words from my
mouth. I was going on to say the importance of the role of local
government in this equation is essential. Sadly, more and more powers
are being taken away from local government, not least sucked up to the
Assembly, and the planning position—I will refer to this
later—is going to be very prejudicial. It is important that,
rather than scoring cheap political points, we try to work together and
move this country forward, because if we run out of energy, we run out
of everything in this country. It is something on which we are totally
reliant. I have a few questions which I hope the Minister will respond
to when he sums up. I would like him to outline how we are to continue
that dialogue. What are his plans to continue to ensure that there is
co-ordination across all levels of the Government?
We have a
difficult situation, but it is not a choice between the economy and the
environment. We need to find a way to combine economic, social and
environmental progress, and that directly affects how we approach
future energy policies in Wales. One thing that we have all agreed on
is research and development in business. It affects how we research new
technologies and bring them to the market. What strategies does the
Minister have to ensure that our research facilities, particularly
Aberystwyth university, and our businesses are best placed to
contribute to the intellectual development of green energy
solutions?
There is huge
potential growth for business from an energy agenda that is going
green. I am interested to know how we are going to create the
commercial framework which will give our businesses in Wales the
confidence to invest in the area and bring those much-needed,
high-quality jobs to Wales that we all seek.
The reform of
the planning system is also key. The Infrastructure Planning
Commission, with authority across England and Wales, removes
responsibility and accountability from local authorities. This calls
into question the legitimacy of major energy projects. The
Government’s proposals remove the decision-making process from
the very people that such projects will most affect or who most need
them. I urge the Minister to indicate to the Committee what
representations the Department has made on the Planning Bill, which is
greatly unpopular among hon. Members on both sides of the House. It is
time to ask the Government to rethink these
matters. Mr.
Llwyd: I agree entirely with what the hon. Lady says about
the Planning Bill and much else, but I would like to add to what she
said about the IPC. The IPC has been formulated—brought
together—simply to push through 13 classes of bad neighbour
developments. That says it all and underlines her arguments. It is
undemocratic and a bad exercise of
government.
Mrs.
Gillan: I agree wholeheartedly. That is the danger and I
hope the Government are in the process of having a
rethink.
Mark
Pritchard: Does my hon. Friend agree that whether it be
wind farms, nuclear power stations or the burial of highly radioactive
nuclear waste, local councils and local people should have a voice and
such developments should not be foisted on
them?
Mrs.
Gillan: I think that point stands alone and it adds more
weight to my point for the Minister to
address.
Lembit
Öpik: What would a Conservative Government do about
the 50-plus MW wind farm developments in mid-Wales? Would the hon. Lady
put a moratorium on the development of those turbine
farms?
Mrs.
Gillan: If the hon. Gentleman thinks I am going to lay out
in the Welsh Grand Committee Conservative policies for the next general
election, he is very much mistaken. I shall resist responding at this
stage.
Mrs.
Gillan: May I just continue? The right hon. Member for
Neath made some very valid points about a transport company in his
constituency. It would be useful to get the views of the Minister and
the Wales Office on what is happening about the escalating fuel costs
in Wales. We need our cars in Wales. They are not a luxury; they are a
necessity, and many of our businesses depend on transport. We have seen
not only fuel price rises, but the Government’s retrospective
tax to come in on cars that are more than seven years old. That is a
very blunt instrument and it is deployed to punish people for past
choices, rather than encouraging them to reduce their dependence on
petrol and diesel.
What
conversations has the Minister had with the Treasury on this tax? I
know that he will have received representations, as I have, about the
agonies it will cause, as well as the disproportionate effect the tax
will have on Welsh car drivers and businesses. Is there any chance of
relief for them to look forward to? Setting long-term emission levels
for new cars would be a much better way of stimulating the market and
business to
research and develop low-energy and carbon-cost fuel initiatives, rather
than this dead hand of taxing historical
choices. We
touched on carbon capture and storage, and it is not entirely clear to
me where the Government are going with that, despite what the Energy
Minister said. I understand that E.ON has announced that it will not
make a further decision on the Kingsnorth coal-fired station until the
Government provide a clear signal on CCS. The situation on carbon
capture and storage is less than satisfactory. The Minister has said it
is an enormous project that will cost an enormous amount of money, and
there is only one, but I am not entirely sure that that project is
continuing. I hope that there will be some support from him for our
idea of setting up a panel of experts to advise on how we can move
matters forward and of looking at a wider range of CCS projects, so
that in Wales in particular we can participate in cutting-edge research
and development, thereby strengthening our
economy. On
tidal power and wind farms, much has been said about the Severn barrage
project. Research into large-scale renewable energy must form part of
the mix with the small-scale domestic renewables that I mentioned. The
UK has been at the forefront of marine renewables technology. As the
Secretary of State will know, the first commercial tide
turbine—a new innovation—is in Strangford lough in
Northern Ireland, and a new wave energy power station that has been
developed in Edinburgh will be installed in Portugal. I do not know
whether Ministers are familiar with those projects. As I said, I am
sure that the Secretary of State knows about the one in Northern
Ireland, but what are we doing on the Welsh front? We have the asset of
an enormous coastline, and there is a danger that more wind turbines
will be put along areas of the coast that should perhaps be reserved
for tourism and attracting people to Wales. What consideration has been
given to those projects? Is there a possibility of applying such
projects along the Welsh coastline, and what would be the impact and
implications of
that?
Chris
Ruane: I thank the hon. Lady for generously giving way a
second time. Does she share the opinion of the leader of the
Conservative party, who described the wind turbines off the coast of my
constituency as “giant bird
blenders”?
Mrs.
Gillan: Again, I am not familiar with that comment. The
hon. Gentleman is trying to make a fairly cheap point, when I am trying
to make serious points about what is happening along our
coastline. Mr.
Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con):
rose—
Mrs.
Gillan: I shall certainly give way to my hon. Friend
because he has further and better
particulars.
Mr.
Crabb: My hon. Friend is making an important point about
how we use the assets that we have in Wales to develop alternative
technologies. She might like to come to Pembrokeshire one day to find
out about two exciting projects that we have on the go: Wave Dragon is
just off the coast of south-west Pembrokeshire, and a
tidal power project is being developed off the St. David’s coast
in north-west Pembrokeshire. Both projects are supported by the Welsh
Assembly Government and the Minister for Energy’s
Department.
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