Lembit
Öpik: Does my hon. Friend agree that, with regard
to wind turbines, while neither of us is opposed to them in principle,
mid-Wales has been over-farmed for wind in practice. It is a source of
disappointment to me that the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham gave
no indication whatsoever that a Conservative
Government would take a more sympathetic view to the objectors in our
constituencies than the current
Administration.
Mr.
Williams: My hon. Friend makes a good point, but he has
also got to remember that technical advice note 8 is in now in
existence, and certain areas have been designated as suitable for wind
power. I was very critical of how the TAN8 measure was brought in,
because I thought it was undemocratic, in the sense that people who
wanted to object to it did not have the advantage of a public inquiry,
whereas most planning projects are subject to an inquiry process. It is
getting a bit like some of the measures in the new Planning
Bill. Mr.
David Jones (Clwyd, West) (Con): Has the hon. Gentleman
noticed, as I have, that most of the strategic search areas identified
in TAN8 happen to be on Forestry Commission land? Has he also noticed
that the recipient of rents for Forestry Commission lands happens to be
the Welsh Assembly Government?
Mr.
Williams: I had not noticed that, but when I go back to my
office and look at the TAN8 maps, perhaps I will be able to agree with
him. I am not quite sure what point he is
making. Mark
Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): A conflict of
interest.
While TAN8
has identified areas where wind farms are thought to be acceptable and
efficient, so many applications are now being made for particular areas
that the planning authorities should be able to look at the cumulative
effect as well. The fact that an area has been designated for wind
farms does not mean that the whole of that area should be or needs to
be covered with them. The planning authorities need to be given the
powers to look at the effect not just of a particular application, but
of many applications together. That is going to be very important if
the public are to have confidence in the planning
process.
Mark
Pritchard: Does the hon. Gentleman also share the concern
of the Ministry of Defence, which on some applications has expressed
concern about the wind turbines having an impact on and negatively
affecting radar? Given the importance of MOD personnel to Wales, and
the border counties in particular, it is a voice we should
heed.
Mr.
Williams: When the first maps regarding TAN8 came out,
many of us expected the area around Abergwesyn in my constituency to be
one of those indicated as suitable for wind farm developments, because
certain proposals had been floating around. Abergwesyn is forestry
land, so perhaps it was looked at very carefully. I have been told that
the reason it was not included, however, is that the RAF objected to
it: it is one of the areas in which it carries out its training. So
people in the area have the problem of low-flying aircraft, but they
been spared the threats of wind power.
Lembit
Öpik: My hon. Friend will be aware of the enormous
disruption generated by the construction of wind turbines in local
communities. Is he also aware that literally thousands of lorry loads
of materials are scheduled to pass through the small town of
Montgomery, and the people there are extremely concerned?
Unfortunately, when we look at the environmental impact of turbines,
those extraneous problems seem not to be taken into account. We should
really raise them and object to them
too.
Mr.
Williams: I am sure that is one of the issues that the
planning committees will take into account, or the Department for
Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform, depending on the size of
the application. If it is over 50 MW, it will be determined in
Westminster, just as the Cefn Croes application was without, as I
understand it, the Minister leaving his desk.
Interesting
pieces of information come out eventually. I cannot say for certain
that this is
true— Mark
Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): Say it
anyway.
Mr.
Williams: I will. It has been suggested that in drawing up
TAN8, the Welsh Assembly did not consult the trunk road agencies, nor
the local authorities’ highways departments, and for that reason
some of the constraints that would have been identified at an early
stage in the construction phase of the development were probably
overlooked. Wales
has the opportunity to be a world leader in green technology. We can
see that we have those opportunities. I could speak for longer on wind
farms, although I think that we have covered the subject well. I hope
that they are now going to be concentrated in the TAN8 area, because
the pepper-pot effect of having small wind farms over the whole of
Wales would be a disaster. We have seen how the coal industry
devastated south Wales for so many years. It has taken us so long to
get those valleys back to their former beauty. I hope that our wind
farms do not have the same effect on the rest of Wales. We have the
opportunities, but we must use common
sense. Adam
Price (Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr) (PC): I am an
opponent of the TAN8 idea of concentrating in relatively small areas,
because it leads to local opposition when we get to saturation point.
Surely the advantage of renewable energy is that it can be
decentralised—it can be spread—and it is about local
self-reliance as much as possible, through local generation of
electricity. Should it not be spread evenly throughout
Wales?
Mr.
Williams: That is an interesting point. I would advocate
communities having their own generation systems. That is to be
encouraged. However, to have large turbines—some are very
large—but perhaps only three or four in diffuse areas is not the
right way forward. One gets huge energy losses getting them back into
the
grid.
The
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Huw
Irranca-Davies): I want genuine clarification. I am not
sure whether the hon. Gentleman is arguing for TAN8—leave the
wind farms where they are now, in the TAN8 area, regrettable as it
is—or against it. There are
significant ramifications on the ground to consider, not only for the
south Wales valleys, but for mid-Wales and other areas that are
designated as TAN8, Forestry Commission or whatever. So that the
Committee is clear, will he clarify what the Liberal Democrat policy is
on
this?
Mr.
Williams: We are where we are. We have TAN8. If an
application comes within TAN8, whatever we think about it or whatever
we think of the landscape implications, there is no point objecting on
those
grounds.
Mark
Pritchard: The hon. Gentleman may not be able to answer
the specific example put to him by the Minister. However, on the
general principle of inshore wind farms, what is the Liberal Democrat
position? Is the party for them or against them? That is quite
clear.
The
Chairman: Order. Before the hon. Gentleman answers the
question, I remind the Committee that the debate is limited in time
until 4 o’clock. Members may wish to hear the Minister wind up,
but if they keep intervening on the speaker, I will not have time to
call everyone who has indicated that they wish to
speak.
Mr.
Williams: Thank you, Mr. Atkinson.
To sum up,
the thrust of our policy on all such matters is that we are in favour
of sustainable energy. However, we have to ensure that it occurs where
it does least damage to the environment and the landscape and where it
is of most benefit to the community. 2.24
pm Dr.
Hywel Francis (Aberavon) (Lab): It is a particular
pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire and I
congratulate him on his thoughtful contribution. I also congratulate my
right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on the important initiative of
developing the Welsh Grand Committee to focus on specific policy areas.
I am especially pleased that the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham
also welcomed that development.
I was
particularly impressed with the Energy Minister’s contribution,
especially his comments on fairness and justice. He talked about
“empowered citizens”. Might I respectfully suggest that
we can have empowered citizens only if we have informed citizens? That
will be my theme this
afternoon. As
Chair of the Welsh Affairs Committee, I am pleased that we are
discussing energy because we had two very important inquiries into
energy in 2005-06 and 2007, and I congratulate the hon. Member for
Clwyd, West on proposing an energy inquiry. Their full significance was
outlined at the beginning of our first report, a short part of which I
shall quote. It states:
“Our
inquiry is a timely and important contribution to the Energy debate and
provides a context for the analysis and evaluation of the implications
of the UK Government’s Energy Review for Wales. Given its
position as a net exporter of energy, with an abundance of natural
resources, Wales faces a unique opportunity to continue to play a vital
role in the United Kingdom’s energy supply. In particular, it
has the potential to develop and establish a leading indigenous, clean
energy industry in the United Kingdom. The careful development and
management of those natural resources could help to address the current
energy dilemmas facing the United Kingdom, not least in providing
clean, safe, secure, reliable and efficient sources of
energy.” That
is how the report began. I would like to acknowledge on the record the
contribution of all members of the Committee, and their diligence and
knowledge of energy, particularly in their own constituencies. While it
is invidious to single out one person, my hon. Friend the Member for
Ynys Môn was especially assiduous in explaining the importance
of nuclear
energy. It
is not my intention today to talk about the
recommendations—after all, there were 58 in the
report—but to address the importance of public information,
public debate, public education and, perhaps most important, public
consultation in Wales about the twin challenges of security of supply
and climate change, made all the more urgent by the rapid rise in world
oil prices. I emphasise the Energy Minister’s point about the
importance of fairness and justice in dealing with those subjects. I am
fond of quoting Francis Bacon’s dictum, which appears on the
Penrhiwceibr miners’ lodge banner, “Knowledge is
power”. Of course, there are several meanings to that in this
context, and it is apposite to reflect on
that. With
that in mind, I believe that our two inquiries performed an important
public education and public information role in raising awareness of
energy matters in Wales. The reports outlined the wealth and diversity
of energy potential in Wales and more than hinted at the need for a
more rational and co-ordinated Government approach to its exploitation.
The reports looked at coal, nuclear, liquefied natural gas, wind
energy, wave and tidal power, including the Severn barrage, biomass,
solar energy, photovoltaics, geothermal energy, hydro-electric power
and microgeneration. They were all examined in considerable detail, so
much so that we visited most of the sites, from Wylfa in the north down
to Tower colliery in the south, and also Denver and Chicago in the
United
States. Given
that diversity of provision, or potential provision, and the twin
challenges of security of supply and climate change, there is surely a
need for a rational, balanced and, above all, informed public debate in
Wales. That is imperative and it would meet, in the words of the
Minister for Energy, the requirements of fairness and
justice.
In that
context, we are blessed in Wales with two important research and
development centres that focus on energy matters. We have already heard
about the well established and well respected Centre for Alternative
Technology in Machynlleth in mid-Wales. There is also the newer Welsh
Energy Research Centre in south Wales. My Committee warmly commended
the work of the Centre for Alternative Technology, especially that on
microgeneration and various alternative technologies. We also called on
the UK Government to give better
funding for the centre’s Wales Institute for Sustainable
Education project, which will launch a state-of-the-art environmental
education centre in Machynlleth this
summer. The
Welsh Energy Research Centre is in my south Wales constituency. In some
respects, it is a virtual centre because it brings together research
expertise from almost all the higher education institutions in Wales.
Three years ago, I attended the impressive opening conference launched
by Andrew Davies, the then Economic Development Minister of the Welsh
Assembly. That centre, in bringing together research groups from all
the leading higher education institutions in Wales, reflects how Wales
is becoming a major energy centre in the UK—and, I would
contend, internationally. Its role in facilitating rapid
commercialisation and exploitation of research is invaluable to both
the Welsh and the UK economies. To take its vital research work
forward, the centre is working with the energy technium in
Pembrokeshire and the sustainable technium in Baglan, which is also in
my constituency. The centre not only plays a critical research and
development role through its conferences and seminars, but performs a
great public information role, which needs to be enhanced and
encouraged. We need more public understanding of the global energy
challenges, through such local initiatives as the conference that the
centre plans for 27 June. It will be held in Swansea, with
presentations on such diverse topics as smart meters, tidal stream
mapping and coal
gasification. Welsh
Assembly Ministers are well aware of the valuable contributions of the
two centres. It is equally important, given that energy is a shared
responsibility, for UK Ministers to familiarise themselves with their
work. I urge representatives of the Wales Office and the Department for
Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform to visit the centres at the
earliest opportunity. As Chair of the Welsh Affairs Committee, I know
that the centres would welcome ministerial
visits. If
UK Ministers were to address seminars or conferences at those centres,
public understanding of the energy challenges would significantly
improve. They might then begin to correct some of the irrational policy
decisions being made on matters such as wind energy, where excessive
faith in wind farms is meeting much public opposition in mid-Wales and
the south Wales valleys. I pay tribute to many of those groups. It is
easy to dismiss them, and there was a tone in the discussion earlier
that implied that perhaps those people are ill informed. My experience
of many of those environmental and community groups is that they are
extremely well informed, and we should respect them for that.
I end my
remarks by reminding everyone that the Energy Minister’s
aspiration is to achieve justice and fairness by empowering our
citizens, and I contend that we empower them by informing
them. 2.35
pm Adam
Price (Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr) (PC): It is a
pleasure to follow the Chairman of the Welsh Affairs Committee. It has
done sterling work in its two reports on the energy sector in Wales,
and no one knows better than the hon. Member for Aberavon (Dr. Francis)
about the role that the shifting fortunes of global energy
markets has played in the history of Wales. The collapse of the coal
price in the middle of the 1920s shaped the course of Welsh history for
a generation or two. The competition from cheap oil and gas in the
1980s and 1990s also wreaked havoc in many of our communities. Wales
has been there before, and we are now in the middle of another global
energy crisis, which most of us accept is most likely to get worse and
affect almost every aspect of our
lives. If
coal and petroleum drove the locomotive of history in the 20th century,
it is the struggle to replace them and cope with the fallout from their
use that will be the drama of the 21st century. Wales is not immune
from that. However, it is important that we bear in mind the three
distinguishing characteristics of where Wales lies in the energy
landscape. I am obviously struggling to bring some new information into
the debate, given that we have heard many hon. Members touch on the key
aspects of the
subject. The
three salient facts are, first, that we are net exporters of
electricity; secondly, that we have the potential of vast, mostly
untapped, renewable resources; and thirdly, and perhaps more
controversially, that we are only partially authors of the future of
energy in Wales and of our own destinies at the moment, because energy
policy is only partially made in
Wales. We
used to export coal, but we now export electricity. Indeed, we have
been a net exporter of electricity to England since the 1960s. One of
the Select Committee reports contained a reference to the power
generation gap that some people are positing on the horizon in about 10
years’ time. The chief executive of Miller Argent referred to a
22 GW generation capacity power gap. He was, of course, referring to
the United Kingdom. At present, there is no anticipated power
generation gap in Wales for the medium to long term. Wales, Scotland
and Northern Ireland are net exporters of electricity. It is important
to bear in mind that England is a net importer from two places: the
European mainland and
Wales. According
to the latest figures, Wales generates 8.8 per cent. of
United Kingdom electricity. It is nice to see a figure not showing us
in deficit, but in surplus. It is a Welsh natural competitive advantage
and a strength of our economy. The figures show that it is on an
increasing curve. Even the decommissioning of the twin-turbine 918 MW
Wylfa nuclear power plant, which will cause a loss of about 7,000
GWh—about 20 per cent. of Wales’s current electricity
generation—will be more than compensated by the new 800 MW
gas-fired plant being built on the River Usk, by the massive 2,000 MW
RWE plant in Pembroke, which was referred to earlier, and by the
proposed ESB International 800 MW plant in Port Talbot, the biomass
plant, and so on. That does not include other growth in the renewable
sector. We
might not be the energy giant, the colossus that we were in the age of
king coal, but we more than hold our own in energy and electricity
generation, and we shall long into the future. From 2012, Wales will
begin exporting electricity to Ireland for the first time with the
construction of the new 1,000 MW interconnector cable between Deeside
and Meath. We will be an international electricity exporter. Wales does
not lack the basic infrastructure of electricity generation, and we
should not fear large-scale outages—similar to the ones that we
saw recently in England—other than on a localised basis, at
least in the short to medium term.
The second
point is about renewables. Obviously, the extent and composition of
electricity generation is critical in terms of climate change. As Paul
Allen of CAT said, in terms of renewable energy and latent potential,
Wales could be the Saudi Arabia of Europe. The Welsh Assembly
Government have adopted a target to have Wales generating all its
electricity needs from renewable sources by 2025. That is currently the
most ambitious renewable target adopted by any national Government
anywhere in the world. Sweden has talked about breaking oil dependency
by 2025, but the Welsh 100 per cent. renewables target is the most
ambitious by that date.
Regrettably,
the hon. Member for Ynys Môn is not in his place—we could
have had a good old ding-dong—but I am glad that the Welsh
Assembly Government have maintained their opposition to nuclear power.
Certainly, that remains the policy of Plaid Cymru. Anglesey is clearly
different, but that is the policy of Plaid Cymru and of the Labour-led
Administration—I do not use that term very often, but I will in
this context.
To digress
for a second, I admit that that is the right decision. Probably the
favourite model from those proposed is the European pressurised
reactor, the EDF-owned model. EDF is having significant problems with
the two EPRs that are currently being built. One is in Finland and has
suffered repeated delays; it is now already two years late and double
the original cost, which is concerning. The second one is in
Flamanville in Normandy, where construction was stopped last month by
the French nuclear safety agency, because of concerns similar to those
in Finland about the construction of low-quality concrete reactor
components. There are real concerns, and EDF is the only company in the
bidding for British energy at the moment. We must caution against
nuclear power being adopted as the policy response in Wales, when we
clearly have so many other options.
Wind energy
has already been referred to, and I share the concerns of the hon.
Member for Aberavon. Communities can reach saturation point. I am in
favour of onshore wind; it has an important part to play, but if it is
seen as a panacea, the technology is overburdened and we get
opposition, public reaction and the renewables agenda suffers. We must
tread carefully and listen sensitively. When the number of wind farms
in a given area rises above 10, for example, we start to see the
industrialisation of the landscape. I am in favour of more
decentralised developments and of not expecting small communities to
share too big a burden.
Mr.
Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) (PC): I commend a
visit to my constituency to my hon. Friend. If he goes to the village
of Croesor, he will see a small stone shippen in which an electricity
generating plant, run entirely by hydroelectric power, lights up 300
homes. It is near a natural lake in the valley, and no one would know
that it is there. I would love to see that proliferated across Wales as
part of the overall portfolio of clean
energy.
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