Adam
Price: My hon. Friend makes a strong point, as
microgeneration and community-based schemes have an important part to
play, particularly in rural areas. Combined heat and power is also an
important factor that we need to employ, certainly in more urban areas,
and I shall address that point shortly. Ground source heat pumps, which
have been pushed in Sweden, can be used effectively in new housing
developments, so an
array of technologies can be used. It is good to see that the proportion
of electricity generated from renewable sources in Wales is rising at a
rate of 1 per cent. a year, which is considerable. If we continue on
that path, we might even meet the target by 2010 or at least come close
to it, which is very positive.
We also have
the potential to use offshore wind, which is a considerable resource
and one that is rising as technology improves and as engineers are able
to take platforms further out to sea. One issue is that we currently
use alternating current, and there is a significant distribution loss
with longer connections. Theoretically, it is possible to use direct
current, so that there is no loss whatsoever, and that would allow us
to build offshore wind turbines possibly hundred of miles out to sea.
That is on the distant
horizon.
Mr.
Jones: The hon. Gentleman mentions advances in
technology that would permit the construction of wind farms further out
to sea, but when the Select Committee considered that in its inquiry,
it found that one of the major problems would be the constraints on
shipping lanes, especially in heavily used areas such as the Irish sea.
Shipping channels have to be kept free, and therefore it is more likely
than not that wind farms will have to be built closer to the coast,
rather than further
away.
Adam
Price: I am not an expert on the shipping lanes off the
Welsh coastI will have to look further at thatbut I do
not think that it is beyond the wit of man to deal with that. After
all, we made the shipping lanes, so if new needs become paramount, it
should be possible to find not only a technical solution, but a
geographical
one. I
am glad to see that the Crown Estate has announced three indicative
zones for new offshore wind sites off the coast of Wales.
Notwithstanding the fact that environmental concerns surrounding
Cardigan bay need to be looked at carefully, the south-west and the
north-west of Wales, in particular, have great potential for offshore
wind farm development.
Marine power
technology will be significant in the 21st century and has a large
potential, as 44 per cent. of the worlds population live within
150 km of an ocean coast. Wales is well positioned for that, as the
hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire said. Lunar Energy has announced
what could be the first tidal energy farm, as there is currently a
competition. That farm will to be built off the coast of Pembrokeshire
as a test construction, but it will produce enough power for about
5,000 homes. Marine Current Turbines is planning something similar off
Holyhead. The Wave Dragon development has been attracted to Wales from
Denmark, which was a pioneer in that area, so it is good that Wales is
also beginning to develop a reputation. A wave energy converter is
being developed, so interesting and great things are happening in
Wales.
The largest
biomass plant in the world is being built in Port Talbot, and it will
deliver power to over 500,000 homes. We need to realise how well Wales
is beginning to do in relation to the renewables agenda. We might still
get the first tidal lagoon in the world. The Chinese have expressed
some interest, but we could still build it in Swansea bay. That was
first mooted in the 1960s; many of these things go back many years. My
hon.
Friend the Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy referred to hydro power,
and the fuel cell was invented by a Welsh engineer, so we have been
there for many years and now is the time to capitalise on some of that
expertise and on our natural resources.
I have read
the Welsh Affairs Committee report, and it is a shame to see that
Whitehall has dragged its feet and prevaricated over the tidal lagoon
project, but let us hope that that is behind us now and that, with a
feasibility study, it will be possible to move on to that exciting
prospect in Swansea bay. That brings us to the Severn barrage. The hon.
Member for Brecon and Radnorshire referred to the report by Frontier
Economics that showed, based on its figures at least, that the large
barrage projectwe should not forget the smaller project, which
has less environmental impact associated with itwould appear to
be more expensive than other renewable alternatives that are available
currently. That is the debate that we must have.
The argument
made by the right hon. Member for Neath could take us down a dangerous
route by saying that climate change trumps all other considerations.
Climate change is the biggest issue of our age, but that does not mean
that there are no other environmental considerations. For example,
trees are great as carbon sinks until they reach a certain age. After a
tree is over 50 years old, it begins to emit carbon dioxide in
some cases. Should we therefore cut down all trees over 50
years of age? No, that would be disastrous for woodland and habitat in
Wales. We have to be careful; climate change is a key concern, but
other legitimate environmental considerations must be factored in, and
we must take a balanced view of them all.
Mr.
Jones: The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about
trees and the fact that they are natural carbon sinks. Does he agree
that it seems perverse that the wind farms that are identified for the
strategic search areas appear to be almost exclusively on Forestry
Commission land?
Adam
Price: I walked into that one, did I not? As I understand
it, the Forestry Commission maintains that those sites are being
cleared as part of its natural forestry management and no additional
forestry is being lost as a result, but I am not an expert; I can only
read what is being said by the Forestry
Commission.
Mr.
Roger Williams: I am never one to underestimate the power
of a conspiracy, but I do not think that a single tree has objected to
a wind farm proposal yet. Wind turbines and trees seem to live
harmoniously together.
Adam
Price: I am not so sure. If trees had votes, they might
vote Liberal Democrat; they might vote Plaid Cymru, but I think that I
should move on.
Mrs.
Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): Will the hon.
Gentleman give way?
Adam
Price: Of course, the tree is the symbol of the
Conservative party.
Mrs.
Gillan: I think that it is a sessile oak in the case of
the Welsh party. I hope that the hon. Gentlemans guarantee is
correct and that such proposals will not reduce our forestry in any
way, shape or form, although the number and size of the projects that
have been put out to licence would decry that. As his party is part of
the Labour-Plaid Government in Cardiff bay, will he tell us what price
has been bid and paid to the Assembly for those sites? Does he agree
that selling the licences on those sites, when the power actually rests
with Westminster, is at best an interesting prospect for those people
who are buying the licences?
Adam
Price: I am looking to the officials in the corner. I do
not have the information to hand, but I am happy to write to the hon.
Lady. Despite the strong potential for renewables, the strong start
that we have made and the laudable carbon emissions target, we are
still a poor performer. That is part of the legacy of our past. We are
one of the worst-performing countries in the EU for emissions in terms
of carbon intensity; only one country is worse than Wales: Estonia.
There seems to be a contradiction between the different energy policies
in Wales: the energy policy of the Welsh Assembly Government on the one
hand and the energy policy of the UK Government in Wales on the
other.
For example,
the consents for the gas-fired projects in Pembroke and, to some
extent, for the biomass plan in Port Talbot should have required the
use of combined heat and powerthat was a tremendous lost
opportunity, but it may be recoverable. The Pembroke plant, to which
the hon. Member for Carmarthen, West and South Pembrokeshire referred,
will produce waste heat equivalent to half of Waless entire
electricity demand. That waste heat could have been used, at least in
part, in a CHP system, in the LNG terminal and in the oil refineries,
although I am not sure how, but more qualified people tell me that that
is
possible. The
expansion of open-cast mining in Ffos-y-Frân is the wrong way to
go. We saw the exchange of letters from the Department of Trade and
Industry, putting pressure on the Welsh Assembly Government to go easy
on the developers. Coal is a precious resource, with new technologies
coming on stream that could make it more appropriate to use. The Welsh
Assembly Government say that they want to lead the transition to a
low-carbon economy, yet the UK Government have awarded the Aberthaw
power station a licence to emit 11 million tonnes of carbon dioxide a
year. That is more than a quarter of Waless entire carbon
dioxide annual emissions in one
stroke. We
want to see a renaissance in deep-mined coal, particularly in
conjunction with carbon capture and storage, but we need to be careful
about going down the open-cast route, because our communities have
suffered enough of that kind of environmental depredation. We have a
new policy of 500 m buffer zones. I hope that it will not be necessary
in future for other communities to suffer in the same way.
We should
look at the potential of coal-bed methane and underground coal
gasification, as I have already said. Three boreholes for coal-bed
methane have already been set up in south Wales and the initial results
are very positive. Eden Energy, an Australian company, issued a
statement to the Australian stock exchange saying that the reserves
found in the south Wales coalfields
are at least as good, if not better, as those in Australia, which is
leading the world in coal-bed methane. That is very exciting; we have
incredibly substantial
reserves. New
technology and techniques from the oil drilling industrylateral
drillingwill allow us to access the reserves that were not
thought recoverable. That could be massively important. Similarly,
underground gasification technology is at more of a pilot
stagethere is substantial interest and a speculative investment
bubble around that as wellbut five or 10 years down the line,
Wales could find itself with a modern and carbon-neutral coal industry
with carbon capture and storage. So we could become energy leaders once
again, but I hope that, this time, the profits will be reinvested in
Wales, for the people of Wales.
Finally, my
third point is that we are not authors of our own destinies. My hon.
Friend the Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy will say a little more
about that, but it is incongruous that decisions on power stations over
50 MW are made in London. We need a holistic energy strategy in Wales.
The Welsh Assembly Government have shown the breadth of their thinking
and their ambition for WalesWales is already beginning to
achieve great thingsbut they have been doing that with one arm
tied behind their back.
Would it not
be better, as is the case with Scotland, if Wales could have the right
to decide the future for energy in Wales? We are competent and capable
of doing
that.
Mrs.
Gillan: How would the hon. Gentleman envisage dealing with
the decommissioning costs in Wylfa
B?
Adam
Price: I do not think it would be fair to burden the Welsh
Assembly Government, who were not even dreamt of at that point, with
those decommissioning costs. Obviously, if the Welsh Assembly
Government were to decide to go forward with a new nuclear power
station, that would be a different matter entirely. That decision
should also be made in Wales. We should have our hands on the levers of
power, literally and metaphorically. That is the best way to have a
holistic, integrated strategy for the people of
Wales. 3.1
pm Nia
Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Hon. Members have made many
excellent points this afternoon. I will try not to repeat too much of
what has already been said.
I am pleased
that we are talking about energy and that the Welsh Affairs Committee
has spent considerable time looking into the issue. More than 30 years
ago, when I was a teenager, I was one of the first visitors to the
Centre for Alternative Technology, whose work has been absolutely
splendid.
As we have
seen on our visits around Wales, very little investment went into any
sort of power station in the 1980s and 1990s and that was very
disappointing. We seem to have a lot of infrastructure from the late
1960s, but not a great deal after that time.
One of the
current crises we face is that, not only have fuel prices shot up but
it is beginning to become obvious that, in spite of what my hon. Friend
the Member for Carmarthen, West and South Pembrokeshire saysand
I fully endorse his comments about price speculationthe
fundamental issue behind all this is the finite nature of some of the
fuels on which we rely at present.
The
main issues are how to combat climate change and how to reduce
emissions, and renewables have an extremely important role in both
those areas. I welcome the Welsh Assemblys commitment to
renewable strategies. In 2005, I had the honour of supporting my hon.
Friend the Member for Edinburgh, North and Leith in his private
Members Bill on microgeneration. We have come a very long way
since then and the terms microgeneration and
carbon footprint have become commonplace and what we do
about microgeneration is spoken about much more widely.
I was
extremely pleased today to hear the Minister for Energy talk about
mechanisms such as feed-in tariffs, to try to look at ways to make it
more viable for home-producers to export to the grid. There are other
issues involved in facilitating that such as connection and
helpfulness, or lack of it, from some of the energy
companies.
We need to
go much further and encourage many more community generation, community
projects, which provide energy for their own communities but can also
export to the grid. Such schemes give a much greater sense of
independence and are much better for energy security. Small projects
that feed immediately in to local communities lose much less energy in
transmission. Again, there are issues about grid connections and the
willingness of energy companies to participate, but that is the way we
need to be going.
We can even
consider wind turbines on individual farms, which can be seen in many
other countries, but we do not seem to have gone down that route. I am
sure that Welsh Assembly colleagues would be keen to look at the idea
of community development. We need to think imaginatively about the sort
of schemes that would be possible under those rules.
We need more
investment and more research. The Welsh Affairs Committee has
highlighted the importance of skills and research in our development,
particularly in our economic development, and I welcome the comments of
my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon about the Welsh Energy Research
Centre. I should like to draw the Committees attention to the
new south-west Wales environmental research forum at Swansea
university. It aims to combine the skills of research with the needs in
the local community, whether in the public or private sector, and work
towards the development of environmentally friendly things, which will
often have an impact on energy, whether through energy saving or energy
generation. Mark
Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): The hon. Lady will recall that
during our inquiries she spent a morning on a boat with me and several
others looking at tidal technologies in the Severn estuary. Does she
agree that the fundamental problem encountered by that scheme was
Government funding? We heard from the hon. Member for Chesham and
Amersham about the lack of Government funding for marine
technologies.
|