Several
hon. Members
rose
The
Chairman: Order. Before I call the hon. Member for Ynys
Môn, I wish to say that after that I will call the Front-Bench
spokesman. It is right that Back Benchers get in, particularly as the
Front-Bench spokesmen have, with the exception of the Secretary of
State, spoken for nearly half an
hour. 3.28
pm
Albert
Owen: Thank you, Mr. Atkinson. I appreciate the
opportunity to contribute. Like other Members, I welcome that the
presence of the Minister for Energy. That practice should be extended
to other Departments, so that we can have other excellent debates on
many subjects. I am grateful to the Secretary of State for that
initiative. The
Minister for Energy and I went through many of these issues on the
Energy Bill. There has been a lot of criticism of that Bill, but it was
essential in getting the infrastructure right for the future. Much of
that criticism was about what did not go in the Bill. I respectfully
say that we need another energy Bill that deals more with domestic
energy usea domestic energy Bill that could take on
board some of the reviews on feed-in tariffs, smart metering, and fuel
poverty and social
tariffs. I
asked the Minister for Energy why we are getting ripped off in Wales by
our energy prices. There needs to be an inquiry into that, looking at
whether some of the larger companies that own the infrastructure,
particularly the gas infrastructure, have too much of a monopoly and it
is too difficult for other companies to take it that extra mile. I am
trying to campaign for extending the gas mains in Wales and the whole
United Kingdom, because many main lines go within yards of small
villages and larger hamlets but it is not possible under
the current regime to get gas to those places. The gas may be too high
pressured or it may be too expensive. We need to look at
that. The
Energy Bill dealt with the important issue of installation
decommissioning, and gas importation and storage was a big part of
that. Also, we have to deal properly with the drillings in the North
sea that have been exhausted. That was the reason for the Energy Bill,
and I was proud to be a part of it. I missed a couple of contributions
and I apologise for that, but I have not heard anybody really dealing
with the N-word, with nuclear, apart from the Secretary of State in his
opening remarks. It is important because 30 per cent. of the
electricity generated in Wales comes from nuclear power. It is a tried,
tested and safe technology and we need to move forward with it. I
appreciate that it is not in the Assemblys energy route map
because it does not deal with over 50 MW, but many people in the
Assembly and in Wales are skirting round the issue and not dealing with
it
properly. We
need nuclear and we are building a consensus on this because many of
the technologies hon. Members have talked about today are not in an
advanced state, so we cannot rely on them and we do not know where they
will take us. Carbon capture and storage is underdeveloped as are many
other technologies. The marine current turbines proposed for Anglesey
are a good project, but again, we have not seen them produce much
electricity apart from in prototypes. I understand there is one in
Northern Ireland that they are looking to bring to Anglesey. The
nuclear issue must be tackled. We must not hide away from it, because
it is a good, safe, low-emission
source. All
sources are controversial. If we look around the country, we are having
debates over barrages and wind farms. I say in every debate that we
talk about energy in that we have to put wind farms in places where the
wind blows, and some of those are unpopular sites, but they have to be
there to get the value out of them. Marine current turbines, even on
the tidal area of northwest Wales, would produce only 18 hours of
electricity out of 24, so it is not a continuous supply. Nuclear does
provide a continuous supply of electricity. I am not sure whether I
should declare an interest here as a chairman of the all-party
parliamentary aluminium group, but aluminium needs a 24/7 supply of
electricity and the industry is in my constituency. We had a disaster
there on Friday when there was a fire. We had four hours without
electricity and the pots had to close down. It is one of the biggest
smelters in Europe and a major manufacturer in this country and I fear
that, if we do not move ahead with nuclear, with the gas importations
and other resources available to us today, we could be in a very
dangerous
position.
Mrs.
Gillan: Will the hon. Gentleman take the thoughts of the
entire Committee to Anglesey Aluminium, commiserate with it on the fire
and hope it is back on its feet quickly? It is an important part of the
economy.
Albert
Owen: I thank the hon. Lady. I will meet the managing
director and I think the company is going to operate. My point is that
without a continuous supply of electricity, the whole process comes to
a halt, which is very worrying.
I wanted to
mention the jobs aspect and I am glad the hon. Member for Preseli
Pembrokeshire raised this, because energy is an important employer that
can produce a lot of jobs in construction, research and development and
energy generation. Wales has some of those natural resources, it is a
good employer and we should move forward with it. Manufacturing and the
business sector in Wales want nuclear because they understand that if
we are going to manufacture, we need that reliable source of energy. It
is not just about job security in my area, but about the energy needs
of the whole
country. The
recent problems with two power stations closing down is alarming;
500,000 homes were without electricity and two reasons were given, one
of which was an EU directive which says that a coal power station
should not produce energy at a time when there is peaks and flows. That
is very dangerous, because the lights could literally go out unless we
get the energy generation in place. I understand that other Members
need to contribute and Front Benchers need to make their points, but I
just need to make the case for nuclear. I do not think we should duck
it, I am not trying to be party-political, because in my area, all
political parties have now moved in favour of extending Wylfa A, which
is possible, particularly with the high cost of electricity now. We can
produce that electricity, over 1,000 MW for the grid, at a competitive
price and safeguard jobs at the commissioning and new-build stages. It
would help Wales with its energy needs. I support nuclear and I
appreciate the opening remarks of the Minister for Energy and of the
Secretary of State in supporting it. I think we all need to back it and
move
forward.
Several
hon. Members
rose
The
Chairman: Order. The Minister said that he would require
about 10 minutes to answer the points in the debate so, when I call the
three Front-Bench spokesmen, that would equate to about five minutes
each. I should be grateful if they could abide by
that. 3.35
pm
Mark
Williams: I hope that my remarks will be a convenient
footnote to the earlier speech of the hon. Member for Aberavon and the
importance that he attached to the research base. It is abundantly
clear from the debate that we certainly have all the natural resources
to deliver many of our renewable targets, and that we also have the
skills base. I want to highlight, as I did earlier in our questions
session, the Institute of Grassland and Environmental Research, as it
was known. It has now merged with the university of Aberystwyth and has
over the years played a fundamental role in the development of
environmental policy. The key challenge facing what is now called the
Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences is, of
course, climate change, but it is also heavily involved in the
development of biofuels from an energy
perspective. The
Energy Minister referred earlier to the sensitivity of food supplies,
but I hope that the work of IBERS is funded and promoted adequately,
along with similar institutions that the hon. Member for Aberavon
mentioned. I am not just making a parochial Aberystwyth point;
excellent research is being carried out throughout Wales. We have heard
about Swansea and elsewhere. Biofuels
still provide us with many benefits of energy production without some of
the negative connotations, and we await with interest the
Governments review of
biofuels. Grassland
systems account for about two thirds of agricultural land in the United
Kingdom and, unlike other energy dedicated crops such as willow and
miscanthus, ryegrass, a particular area of research that has been
undertaken near Aberystwyth, is not restricted by cold, water
availability, soil type or social factors. I am sorry if my speech
sounds a bit like a science lesson at the end of the day when everyone
wants to go home, but fundamental work has been undertaken at IBERS and
I want it to be noted by the Minister. The beauty of its work is that,
in developing biofuel, it is linking it closely to improved land use.
Its objective is that we use Welsh grasslands rather than arable land.
I hope that that will dispel many peoples concerns about the
development of
biofuels. There
is a hearty relationship between Aberystwyth and Swansea and a
developing relationship between the university of Aberystwyth and the
university of Bangor. IBERS has been working hard in developing biomass
strategies as well. Lord Rooker from the Department for Environment,
Food and Rural Affairs has visited IBERS and acknowledges the
Departments fundamental role in awarding some contracts to
Welsh research
institutions. As
a member of the Welsh Affairs Committee, I am haunted by the assertion
of some witnesses that the funding of some renewables, biomass, the
development of biofuels and other technologies have been neglected by
the Government. I was heartened by the knowledge that the expertise is
there, but still puzzled by the challenge to us all to get that elusive
mix of variables that means something and that can bridge some of our
energy demands. However, I am in no doubt that biomass and biofuels are
an important part of that, so I encourage the Wales Office team to come
to IBERS, see its work and flag up its case to their colleagues around
the Cabinet
table. The
debate has been very encouraging. I share the optimism that has been
expressed. As the hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr said,
there is a huge challenge to us out there, but there are huge
opportunities too. We have heard about green collar workers. They are
in Ceredigion, at CAT, and we need to capitalise on such
expertise. 3.39
pm
Mr.
Llwyd: During the Committee on the Planning Bill, there
was a discussion about moving the 50 MW limit and transferring it to
the National Assembly for Wales. My hon. Friend the Member for
Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr made a powerful speech about the green
energy potential of Wales and being able to export the same. I agree
fully with him and cannot add usefully to what he said. If we are to
control the energy needs of Wales and foresee the use of clean energy
way to meet those needs, we must revisit the 50 MW limit before long.
It might be there because of nuclear power. I do not know, but whatever
the reason, it will have to be revisited at some point.
In
conclusion, there have been some good speeches and it has been an
excellent debate. I was particularly struck by the speech made by my
hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr and the
interesting speech by the hon. Member for Carmarthen, West and South
Pembrokeshire. I will complete my few remarks by referring to Gordon
James, the director of Friends of the Earth in Wales, who strongly
believes that the 50 MW limit should be lifted to allow Wales to go its
own way on energy policy. I remind the Committee that the National
Assembly for Wales is the only Assembly that has in its founding
articles the duty to act sustainably. My plea is to allow it to do
so. 3.40
pm
Mr.
Jones: It has been a wonderful debate and I would like to
add my voice to those who have already complimented the Secretary of
State on the innovation of having the debate in this format. It has
been a timely and appropriate debate, on an issue that is, quite
rightly in my view, largely not devolved. Energy is an important
national strategic issue, and it is right that the House of Commons
should hold these debates and that they should be debated in a Welsh
context.
To underline
the debates timeliness, I shall read from an e-mail that I
received at 12.34 pm today from a constituent in Clawddnewydd, who
said: I
work at Trawsfynydd Power Station as part of the project to
decommission the site. It is 37 miles from my houseI might add
a very scenic drive with very little in the way of traffic at 6.00am,
actually no traffic at all... The roads are fairly good but as you
will probably understand 37miles for me to get to work by push bike for
7.30 am would be a might impracticable... Whenever any debate is
covered in any of the media forums all they seem to focus on is the
City and Suburbia. Can you please ensure that you will raise it in the
house that we, the people of your constituency, are suffering more so
because there is no public transport and the majority of us have to
travel great
distances. At
approximately 3.40 pm, I have raised the issue in the House and am sure
that Members of the Committee will sympathise with that typical
resident of rural Wales. As we have heard, the people of rural Wales
have suffered disproportionately because of the enormous increase in
fuel prices in the past few
months.
Mr.
Roger Williams: Will the hon. Gentleman give
way?
Mr.
Jones: No, I really cannot as the time constraints are too
tight, so I apologise to the hon.
Gentleman. We
had a number of excellent speeches, and I would like to pay tribute to
the hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr, who delivered an
interesting contribution. Whether it is entirely the case that
speculators are responsible for the price
increases[Interruption.] Forgive me, I
meant to refer to the hon. Member for Carmarthen, West and South
Pembrokeshire. He made an interesting contribution, but we must not
forget the contribution that the rapidly developing economies of India
and China have made to rising prices. Nevertheless, it was an
interesting speech which we all
enjoyed. The
hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire also referred to high energy
costs and the fact that energy prices are disproportionately high in
Wales, and he was entirely right. He, too, represents a rural
constituency, and I know that the pain that his constituents have
suffered over the past few months has been shared by the constituents of
many hon. Members here today. He referred to the Severn barrage, as did
many others. The Severn barrage offers a tremendous potential and
could, as the Secretary of State said, provide 5 per cent. of the
electricity generation in Wales. However, I am conscious of the fact
that the Severn barrage has been on the agenda since I was a small boy.
It is a major and ambitious project and could have a major impact on
ecosystems and communities. It should certainly be given serious
consideration and we should not rush headlong into it. We have to think
carefully before pursuing it.
Other forms
of marine energy generation can be pursued with less environmental
impact. The hon. Member for Llanelli referred to tidal lagoons. Those
are interesting technologies, potentially having less environmental
impact and being less costly. Nevertheless, they could perform a very
important function as part of the energy
mix. The
hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr delivered a very
interesting speech which I am sure was entirely logical from a
nationalist perspective. I think, however, that most members of the
Committee do not share his view of an isolationist Wales. Wales is an
integral part of the United Kingdom, and has both a right and a duty to
play its own part in
generation. I
agree with the hon. Member for Ynys Môn. There should be
development of nuclear power, and the Government should facilitate
that. It should be developed by private enterprise, but I am entirely
convinced that nuclear power is far and away the most
reliableand a very cleanmethod of base load electricity
generation. I am entirely with the hon. Gentleman on that point and
against the hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and
Dinefwr. We
had a very interesting debate. I wish I could speak for longer, but I
am sure several hon. Members are glad that I cannot. Nevertheless, I
reiterate my thanks to the Secretary of State. The format of
todays debate is a very important innovation. I hope it is the
first in a long line of debates on matters of national interest from a
Welsh perspective. I am grateful to him.
Government
can play a very large role in the development of clean energy. Hon.
Members talked about developing carbon capture and storage, and it is
important that we recognise the role of Government in that development.
In California, it has been made absolutely clear that no new coal power
stations can be developed unless they produce emissions no greater than
500 kg of carbon dioxide per megawatt-hour. That is the equivalent of a
modern gas-fired power plant, the cleanest and most efficient of all
hydrocarbon technologies. There is no reason at all why a similar
policy could not be adopted in this country. I would commend it to the
Government, and say to the Secretary of State that it is already
Conservative
policy. 3.48
pm
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