Huw
Irranca-Davies: It has been a genuine pleasure to be here
today and to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Atkinson. I
hope that you, too, have enjoyed the debate.
It has been
a fascinating and well focused Welsh Grand Committee. Several right
hon. and hon. Members have commented on the innovation here today, and
I
think that having done it, we will not be able to go back. More of this
type of debate would warmly welcomed by both sides of the Committee. I
will make only one pun, because I know that when I make puns in my
rounding-up statement, they tend to be reported on blog sites—I
am not looking anywhere in particular. There has certainly been no lack
of energy in the Committee Room today. That is the only one, and I will
move on quickly. As our
discussions have demonstrated, there is massive strength of feeling on
these issues, and I welcome the views of colleagues on the
short-to-medium-term domestic front, which is grabbing headlines at the
moment, and on the long-term issues. One of the reassuring things about
today’s debate is that, while there has been much discussion
around the immediate challenges—literally on the hearth and in
people’s homes—it has also taken time to focus on the
real, big issues as well. We cannot escape those in our
discussions. Before
we started the main debate, the Minister for Energy mentioned one facet
that has been touched on by several hon. Members—the need for
more green-collar jobs in Wales. The issue of employment in renewables
and other sectors of energy production is critical for Wales, and we
should not discount it
easily. The
hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham spoke right at the beginning on
behalf of Welsh sheep, which, she said, make the best wool for Welsh
jumpers. I commend that. On a serious point, she spoke about the
traditional respect for energy use that we had when times were tight.
Such respect is being pushed in our schools at the moment, with the
introduction of eco-councils in Welsh schools. My own children are
involved, and the councils involve developing awareness of
environmental issues and the need to conserve energy as well as looking
at renewable energy.
The hon.
Lady asked about continuing dialogue with the Welsh Assembly
Government. That has been a hallmark of the last few years in the Wales
Office, and it is continuing through the Planning Bill, the Energy
Bill, the Climate Change Bill and Legislative Competence Orders. The
need for very close dialogue and consistently constructive engagement
at official and ministerial level has been a hallmark, and we intend to
continue that.
On
escalating fuel costs, which I will come back to in a moment, I cannot
be expected as a Wales Office Minister to pre-empt any pre-Budget
statement, but I have heard the representations. As has been mentioned,
I recently met a large delegation of hauliers from south, west and
mid-Wales in Bridgend, where we had a frank discussion. Those concerns
have been passed on and conveyed, but hon. Members should not expect me
to pre-announce any pre-Budget
statement. There
has been a lot of discussion on the carbon capture pilots, which were
raised by the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham. There is immense
potential within carbon capture and storage, and it has the potential
to tie in to other industries, such as oil extraction in the North sea
and methane gas extraction, if it is applied in the right
way.
The hon.
Lady asked about nuclear policy and Wylfa. We expect a full
consultation to be published in July or thereabouts, and nominations
for new sites should take place at the end of the year, but, again,
hon. Members should not expect me to pre-empt where those will
be—at the moment the hon. Lady’s guess is as good as
mine.
On clean coal
technology, carbon capture and storage has huge potential. Earlier, the
Minister for Energy pointed out that our choice of which pilot project
to invest in with CCS technology is determined not only by the UK
domestic market and what we can do here, but the potential—jobs
included—of exporting the technology worldwide to places such as
China and India. We have allocated £35 million for the
demonstration of carbon abatement technologies on top of the
£20 million invested in the current technology
strategy programme for clean energy
technologies. The
hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham discussed the marine renewables
deployment fund and questioned whether it is underused. The strict
criteria that need to be met before a grant is made include the
criterion that the technology must have been demonstrated at full scale
for three months continuously or for a total of six months in a
12-month period. To date, no application has met that criterion. The
money is there, if the technology can be proven rather than its being
just flying a
kite.
Mrs.
Gillan: When no money has been deployed for four years
surely somebody ought to be re-examining the criteria? If nobody is
meeting them, perhaps the criteria are too
high.
Huw
Irranca-Davies: The only thing that I would say in
response, not being the lead Minister on this matter, is that we must
make sure that public money is not wasted. If there is provable
technology that can be used and that has a real potential end use,
bearing in mind all the discussion that we have had today, then that is
what that fund is for.
The hon.
Lady also mentioned what we are doing to foster research and
development into energy solutions in Wales. My hon. Friend the Member
for Aberavon touched on the Wales Energy Research Centre, which was
recently created by the Welsh Assembly Government and which now
benefits from £7 million of structural funds. Some of the issues
dealt with at the centre include microgeneration, design of truly smart
meters, development and installation of tidal stream energy systems,
low carbon vehicle fuels, energy crops and conversion processes, coal
firing with biomass in power stations and the potential for clean
underground coal gasification.
On Wales
being at the cutting edge of research, we are already starting to put
in place links with the knowledge industries and universities to drive
the process this forward. In order to build on this base of relevant
research and development, the Assembly Government recently announced
funding of £5 million from the Higher Education Funding Council
for Wales. That is linked to the Welsh School of Architecture, Cardiff
university, Bangor, Cardiff School of Engineering and Glamorgan
Sustainable Environment Research Centre and Swansea School of
Engineering, so a lot of good work is currently going on.
I turn
briefly to the contribution made by my hon. Friend the Member for
Carmarthen, West and South Pembrokeshire. It was a very good
contribution, and his expertise on energy issues really showed through.
He talked about the Senate Subcommittee and its views on the role of
speculation in crude oil prices. Although he is not here for the
conclusion of the debate, I urge him to continue articulating that view
using his expertise.
The hon.
Member for Brecon and Radnorshire discussed the cost of domestic energy
and what it means for Wales, and a few other hon. Members touched on
that, too. We welcome February’s announcement of the Ofgem
review of the energy market, and we are looking forward to its
findings, although we cannot pre-empt them. Welsh Assembly Ministers
have discussed energy pricing in Wales with Ofgem, which has agreed to
include Wales within the review. The Secretary of State also wrote to
Ofgem on that matter.
The hon.
Member for Brecon and Radnorshire discussed infrastructure. I remember
several years back—it must have been eight or nine years
ago—as I was driving through the Swansea valley and up through
Creunant, there was a huge billboard on the side of the road, and I
wondered what it said. The sign stated, “Gas is coming to
Creunant”. That is fantastic, but we still have more work to
do.
The hon.
Member for Brecon and Radnorshire also talked about TAN 8 and its
cumulative effect. I am still not quite clear where he is coming from,
so perhaps we can discuss it again on another occasion. My constituency
and other hon. Members’ constituencies face what could be
cumulative development, and we are encouraging local authorities to
take that into account when considering a planning
application.
My hon.
Friend the Member for Aberavon talked about the highly
commendable work of the Welsh Affairs Committee on energy in
Wales and the 58 recommendations, rather than 57 varieties, that came
out of that process. I am glad that he touched on the fairness and
justice agenda, with which the Minister for Energy began his
contribution. We must certainly take some difficult decisions, but we
must ensure that we are delivering for the people on the
doorstep.
Other hon.
Members touched on coal-bed methane and virgin methane, including, I
think, the hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr. A couple of
the pilot holes dug for that project, which returned quite successful
results, are in my constituency, and I have visited a couple of them. I
note that paragraph 32 of the Welsh Affairs Committee report
states: “we
recommend that there is a role for Government in working jointly with
industry in developing the potential for commercial extraction of coal
bed methane, including joint funding for exploration, to establish the
likely extent of this
resource.” I
personally feel that there is potential there, and I hope that it will
be followed through. I can also tell my hon. Friend the Member for
Aberavon that I will be happy to visit the research establishments
within his constituency in the coming
months. The
hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr discussed Wales being a
net exporter, which is right. There is an interchange across the Irish
sea, and what is going on is exciting. On the Severn barrage, we do not
presume that there will be one outcome from the study, and we must look
at the environmental impacts. We acknowledge that the barrage
potentially has the capacity to provide the 5 per cent. generation
needs that have been talked about. There may be other solutions, and we
will have to see what the study comes up with.
Frankly, we
know where we stand on the 50 MW issue, and I will say nothing else
about it. There are currently four proposals for wind farms of over 50
MW on Forestry Commission land, and another proposal is
likely to be confirmed shortly. The Welsh Assembly Government are being
kept informed of the proposals, but the Department for Business,
Enterprise and Regulatory Reform has not yet given consent to any of
them, as they have not yet reached the planning
stage. The
hon. Member for Llanelli talked about localisation, community
generation and the small-is-beautiful approach. She also talked about
the importance of the draft Marine Bill in reconciling conflicting uses
within the marine environment. It is good to see that Bill coming
through.
With those
remarks, I will draw my speech to a close. These are vital issues for
the short term and the long term, and I commend the motion to the
Committee. Question
put and agreed
to. Resolved, That
the Committee has considered the matter of the future of energy in
Wales. Committee
adjourned at Four
o’clock.
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