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The Government hope and expect that there will be a chance to debate the policy and issues as comprehensively as possible, drawing in a range of contributions from both sides of the House. There will also be a shorter time allocated afterwards on the technical amendments, which will benefit from the context of the wider discussion
during the debate. The Business of the House motion, as I have already said, allows the proportion of time on a given day to be altered. I am happy to give the undertaking that we will consider suggestions put forward today and subsequently about the balance of time allotted, within the parameters set out in the motion.
Mr. Cash: Will the Minister give way on that point? [ Interruption. ]
Mr. Murphy: I am urged not to give way to the hon. Gentleman, but the kinder part of my spirit has taken over and I shall do so.
Mr. Cash: I am grateful to the Minister and I am sure that he will wish to consider my point when reviewing the arrangements. So far, discussion has concentrated on the length of time available for the referendum clause—which is of course vital—but tucked away in the same column are the new clauses. As the Minister will know, I have tabled two new clauses—one on the Bill of Rights, which goes to the heart of proceedings in this House and the importance to be attached to them, and one on the supremacy of Parliament, which is also extremely important. For those to be put into the same category as the referendum would place an enormous time pressure on the debate. I hope that the Minister will review that situation.
Mr. Murphy: As I have already said, we will listen to all reasonable suggestions on such matters. Days 9, 10 and 11 give the opportunity for such debates, and they are not themed.
When we compare the Government’s approach to that of other European countries and their parliamentary ratification process—Ireland alone intends to hold a referendum, because of its domestic constitutional requirements—I would put the UK on the top rung, given the quantity of time allowed and the potential quality of the debate that we intend to have. The motion represents a comprehensive, efficient and structured programme for scrutiny of the Bill. It will provide Members and those outside the House with greater clarity on, predictability of and control over the proceedings. I hope that it will ensure that the crucial process is fully mainstream, with participation on both sides of the House and detailed scrutiny of the major themes of the treaty. I commend the motion to the House.
5.32 pm
Mr. William Hague (Richmond, Yorks) (Con): I beg to move, in line 24, leave out from ‘TABLE’ to end and add—
The Foreign Secretary obviously decided that he would be too busy in Brussels to attend the debate today, and the Minister for Europe will now know why. The Foreign Secretary probably anticipated better than others the difficulty that would arise. Indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack) just made a valid point. The Minister has taken an hour and a half to respond to valid and legitimate interventions —and not only from Opposition Members—but the same time is meant to be allotted to the consideration of amendments on vast tracts of the Bill. He said that he would be sensitive to the will of the House and flexible on the time, and he should concede—although he will not—that the will of the House as represented by those hon. Members in their places today is that this motion should be withdrawn and replaced with one that shows greater consideration of the wishes of many hon. Members.
Mrs. Dunwoody: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Hague: I shall give way to the hon. Lady, because I can tell the Minister that unless he allows for her opinion, his life will be a misery for weeks to come.
Mrs. Dunwoody: I do hope that that is right. In view of what the right hon. Gentleman said, is it incorrect that his Front-Bench colleagues agree with the motion on the Order Paper? If not, was he consulted about the use of Standing Order No. 24?
Mr. Hague: We certainly do not agree with the motion, and we will vote against it. We will, of course, vote for our amendment, not because we agree with any of the procedures involved but because we wish to propose an amendment that ought to be acceptable to the Government and that would address many of Members’ concerns about the time available for consideration of amendments. We are no fans of the procedure employed in the motion or of the constraints that it sets on debate. We will vote to lift some of those constraints, and we will vote against the motion. I hope that that makes things clear to the hon. Lady.
In his speech, the Minister achieved a remarkable feat, for which I envy him: in a debate on European matters, he achieved complete unanimity between my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr. Cash) and my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke). I have striven for years to bring that about, and it has taken only one and a half hours of procedural shambles from the Government finally to achieve it. For a Minister who said that he was going to use these debates to create divisions in the Conservative party, it is not exactly an auspicious beginning.
The Minister also performed a number of interesting U-turns in the course of his speech. On the motion to which the Government ought to have given so much thought, and to which they were so attached that they put it on the Order Paper for approval, he now says that they will revisit the time allocated on a daily basis. However, the debates on the treaty start tomorrow. The debate on the charter of fundamental rights, which his hon. Friends rightly asked him about—the motion calls them debates on human rights—are next Tuesday. He said that he would be flexible and perhaps place new motions on the Order Paper about the matter, but he does not have very long to do so, given the timetable that the Government have adopted.
The Minister conceded to my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr. Harper) that on day 11 the time for debate will be protected. Day 11 may of course include the important debate on a referendum, and given the Government’s flagrant breach of their election promise on that subject, that is a welcome concession. However, his biggest U-turn of all was on a policy matter. He completed the Government’s 180° turn of the past seven months by saying that the Government had neither sought nor claimed to have achieved an opt-out from the charter of fundamental rights. Many of us remember Mr. Tony Blair, in his last week as Prime Minister, standing at the Dispatch Box and saying:
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