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5 Feb 2008 : Column 899

Mr. Murphy: That does not fall within the scope of the amendment. The matter has already been resolved by the House.

Mr. Bone: Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Murphy: Not at the moment; I shall make some progress.

If the charter were removed from the scope of the Bill, someone in Ireland, France or any other member state would look to the charter as an accessible statement of their rights, while a UK citizen would have to trawl through a plethora of treaties, judgments, cases and agreements. Surely that would be an absurd position for us to place our citizens in.

Mr. Clappison: Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Murphy: Of course.

Mr. Bone: Oh!

Mr. Murphy: I will give way to the hon. Member for Hertsmere (Mr. Clappison). Then, if the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Bone) is willing to be brief, I shall happily give way to him.

Mr. Clappison: Is not the Minister advocating a recipe for frustration? When the UK citizen has gone through the rights, he will find that under the Government’s protocol he is unable to rely on them.

Mr. Murphy: We have made it clear that the charter does not create new rights, but simply records existing rights. It is an amalgamation of existing rights from different sources.

Mr. Bone: I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, as our time is limited because of what the Government have done. At the beginning of our proceedings on the Bill, the Minister said that he would be flexible. Will he be flexible about tomorrow’s debate?

Mr. Murphy: That is a matter for the usual channels. I will look forward to tomorrow’s debate to see how that is resolved.

Let me turn briefly to amendment No. 203. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Hemsworth that over the past seven years the conversation about Europe has been trapped in a vocabulary about red lines and protocol. We have often missed the human and social dimension of what it means to be British and European.

Across the European Union, 92 million citizens are economically inactive. That is the big economic and social challenge facing Europe today. As we pay such close attention to the treaty of Lisbon, we must also pay increasing attention to the agenda of Lisbon: providing jobs, restarting social mobility across the EU and moving increasing numbers of those 92 million people into work. Once we have resolved the treaties, red lines, protocols and all those issues, we must have a detailed, thorough discussion about the dynamic of what it means to be involved in a social Europe.

If we had sought on purpose to design a system over the past seven years that would disconnect the citizens of Europe from European structures, we could not have done a better job than we have. We did not choose to go through that process, but we have gone through it. The
5 Feb 2008 : Column 900
disconnection has undermined contemporary consent for what Europe can seek to achieve and the great deal of good that it can do on the international stage.

I accept the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hemsworth about the concerns of the trade union movement, which are regularly put to me and others. We have agreed with the TUC and others to continue the dialogue about the specific UK social dimension of Europe. That dialogue is only just beginning. We look forward to being involved in that with my hon. Friend and with other hon. Friends.

Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): Arguments and debates about the treaty, the charter of fundamental rights and the direction of Europe are swirling around between parties and countries, but is not the real problem on Europe, and the real tragedy, that we have the only mainstream centre-right party in Europe that refuses to connect or debate and talks only the language of withdrawal?

Mr. Murphy: My right hon. Friend is absolutely correct.

Mr. Cash: Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Murphy: The hon. Gentleman will be allowed three or four minutes at the end to make his points. I hope that he accepts that that is a fair division of the limited time that we have left, and I shall make sure that I allow him that time.

Amendment No. 125 would remove the provision that the EU should aim to combat discrimination when it acts. Article 2 does not give the EU any new powers to legislate, but it complements the current specific powers of the Council, introduced at Amsterdam, to legislate to combat

If we were to accept the amendment, all that would be left of anti-discrimination measures would be article 8, which promotes equality between men and women only. That is important, but amendment No. 125 would remove all the efforts to combat discrimination that I set out a moment ago. That is a ridiculous and reactionary attitude to Europe, and the Government want nothing to do with it.

Amendment 129 would remove a simple restatement of the specific citizenship rights accorded to nationals of EU member states that have been part of the treaty since Maastricht. Opposition Members are resiling from that treaty in ever increasing numbers, but the treaty under consideration tonight would not affect the specific articles on the rights of citizens. I therefore encourage the hon. Member for Stone to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

I wish to allow the hon. Member for Stone time to sum up his arguments. He claimed that things were moving in the right direction for Conservative party policy on Europe, but as my right hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane) noted, the Opposition are more obsessed about, and more isolated in, Europe than at any time in their history. If we were to accept the Opposition amendments, the direction in which we were moving would be towards the EU’s exit door.

5 Feb 2008 : Column 901

Mr. Cash: In the concluding moments of the debate, I should like to say that the Conservative party is completely united on these matters— [ Interruption. ] I listened to the speeches from the Government Back Benches—they were extremely well delivered—and I was struck by how divided Labour Members are in comparison with us. We insist on democracy and on the right of this country’s voters rather than the right of the ECJ to make decisions. That remains paramount, and we shall pursue our proposals. Although I shall not press amendment No. 84 to a vote, I shall seek to vote on amendment No. 228.

Finally, Sir Francis Jacobs, a member of the ECJ, made a seminal speech about the interaction between the European convention and the charter. He said that the rights in the treaty were said to be based on the rights guaranteed on the convention, but that there were intriguing differences of wording. He also said that the treaty’s scope was considerably wider than the rights protected in the European convention.

The reality is that there is overlap between the treaty and the convention. They are different, and new rights are being proposed. The Government stand condemned for what they have said today.

The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Do I understand that the hon. Gentleman wishes to seek leave to withdraw amendment No. 84?

Mr. Cash: I thought that I said so, Sir Alan. In the circumstances, the answer is yes.

The Chairman: It is customary to use those as the last words in these circumstances. I take it that they are the hon. Gentleman’s last words?

Mr. Cash: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed: No. 228, page 1, line 12, after ‘excluding’, insert—

‘(i) the Protocol on the Application of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union to Poland and the United Kingdom—

(a) Preamble, tenth paragraph stating that references in the Protocol to the operation of specific provisions of the Charter are strictly without prejudice to the operation of other provisions of the Charter; and(b) Preamble, twelfth paragraph stating that the Protocol is without prejudice to other obligations devolving upon Poland and the United Kingdom under the Treaty on European Union, the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, and Union law generally; and (ii) ’ .—[Mr. Francois.]

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee proceeded to a Division.

The Chairman: I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.

The Committee having divided: Ayes 168, Noes 357.
Division No. 72]
[10.15 pm


Afriyie, Adam
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Amess, Mr. David
Ancram, rh Mr. Michael
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Bacon, Mr. Richard
Baldry, Tony

Barker, Gregory
Baron, Mr. John
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Beresford, Sir Paul
Binley, Mr. Brian
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Bone, Mr. Peter
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Bottomley, Peter
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Brokenshire, James
Browning, Angela
Burrowes, Mr. David
Burt, Alistair
Butterfill, Sir John
Campbell, Mr. Gregory
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clappison, Mr. James
Clark, Greg
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Cox, Mr. Geoffrey
Crabb, Mr. Stephen
Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth)
Davies, Philip
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen
Dorries, Mrs. Nadine
Duncan, Alan
Dunne, Mr. Philip
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Evans, Mr. Nigel
Evennett, Mr. David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Mr. Michael
Field, Mr. Mark
Francois, Mr. Mark
Fraser, Mr. Christopher
Gale, Mr. Roger
Garnier, Mr. Edward
Gauke, Mr. David
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gove, Michael
Gray, Mr. James
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Greenway, Mr. John
Hague, rh Mr. William
Hammond, Mr. Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harper, Mr. Mark
Hayes, Mr. John
Heald, Mr. Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, Nick
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holloway, Mr. Adam
Horam, Mr. John
Howarth, Mr. Gerald
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Jones, Mr. David
Kawczynski, Daniel
Key, Robert
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Laing, Mrs. Eleanor
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Leigh, Mr. Edward
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
Maclean, rh David
Main, Anne
Malins, Mr. Humfrey
Maples, Mr. John
Mates, rh Mr. Michael
Maude, rh Mr. Francis
May, rh Mrs. Theresa
McCrea, Dr. William
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Mercer, Patrick
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Milton, Anne
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, Mr. James
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Pickles, Mr. Eric
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Robinson, Mrs. Iris
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, Mr. David
Scott, Mr. Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Mr. Keith
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob
Spring, Mr. Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Mr. Anthony
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Swire, Mr. Hugo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Tredinnick, David
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew

Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Viggers, Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Walter, Mr. Robert
Watkinson, Angela
Whittingdale, Mr. John
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, Mr. David
Wilshire, Mr. David
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Wilson, Sammy
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Ayes:

James Duddridge and
Jeremy Wright

Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Alexander, Danny
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Mr. David
Anderson, Janet
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Austin, John
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baker, Norman
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Beith, rh Mr. Alan
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Blunkett, rh Mr. David
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Bradshaw, Mr. Ben
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brennan, Kevin
Brooke, Annette
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Des
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, rh Andy
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Burt, Lorely
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byers, rh Mr. Stephen
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Ms Katy
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire
Darling, rh Mr. Alistair
Davey, Mr. Edward
Davies, Mr. Dai
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Devine, Mr. Jim
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Etherington, Bill
Farrelly, Paul
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, Andrew
George, rh Mr. Bruce

Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, Paul
Goldsworthy, Julia
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Dr. Evan
Harris, Mr. Tom
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, John
Heath, Mr. David
Hemming, John
Henderson, Mr. Doug
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hood, Mr. Jim
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Horwood, Martin
Hosie, Stewart
Howarth, David
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley
Hughes, Simon
Huhne, Chris
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Hunter, Mark
Hutton, rh Mr. John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Ingram, rh Mr. Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Keetch, Mr. Paul
Kelly, rh Ruth
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles
Khan, Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, Jim
Kramer, Susan
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lamb, Norman
Lammy, Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leech, Mr. John
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Mr. Ivan
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Lucas, Ian
Mackinlay, Andrew
MacShane, rh Mr. Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McCartney, rh Mr. Ian
McDonagh, Siobhain
McFadden, Mr. Pat
McFall, rh John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, Mrs. Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McNulty, rh Mr. Tony
Meale, Mr. Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Mr. Alan
Miliband, rh David
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Moffat, Anne
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Moore, Mr. Michael
Moran, Margaret
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Morley, rh Mr. Elliot
Mudie, Mr. George
Mulholland, Greg
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
O'Brien, Mr. Mike
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Olner, Mr. Bill
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Plaskitt, Mr. James

Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Price, Adam
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Purnell, rh James
Rammell, Bill
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, Mr. Alan
Reid, rh John
Rennie, Willie
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rogerson, Dan
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Rowen, Paul
Roy, Mr. Frank
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Bob
Russell, Christine
Ryan, rh Joan
Salter, Martin
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad
Seabeck, Alison
Sharma, Mr. Virendra
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Simpson, Alan
Singh, Mr. Marsha
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andy
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, Geraldine
Smith, rh Jacqui
Smith, John
Smith, Sir Robert
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stunell, Andrew
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Tami, Mark
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, David
Taylor, Matthew
Teather, Sarah
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thurso, John
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Mr. Neil
Twigg, Derek
Vaz, rh Keith
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Waltho, Lynda
Watson, Mr. Tom
Watts, Mr. Dave
Webb, Steve
Weir, Mr. Mike
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Williams, Mark
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wishart, Pete
Wood, Mike
Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. Wayne David and
Mr. Michael Foster

Question accordingly negatived.
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