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He also described competition as a “dogma”.

Mr. Cash rose—

Mr. Gauke: I hope that my hon. Friend will forgive me for not giving way. I need to complete one or two remarks.

President Sarkozy has said that a competition policy could emerge

He is cutting something of a dash on the world scene at the moment, and is emerging as a dominant figure in European politics. I am afraid that he is showing no enthusiasm for the Anglo-Saxon model—despite a lot of enthusiasm for a Franco-Italian model. His view is wrong in terms of the best interests of the European Union, and it is certainly wrong in terms of the benefit of the United Kingdom.

If the treaty had been in our interests and if it had been achieving our objectives, what would it have looked like? Such a treaty would have included provisions to bolster competition, not weaken it. Where are the Lisbon treaty’s provisions to enable member states, not just the Commission, to propose the scrapping of unnecessary regulation? Such provisions do not exist. The treaty moves us away from the Anglo-Saxon model towards a more interventionist model. Its framework encourages more regulation, not less. Its objectives encourage more protectionism, not less. It is a reorientation of the EU away from the economic policies that create jobs and wealth, and towards the short-term protectionism that most people in this House oppose.

4.18 pm

The Minister for Europe (Mr. Jim Murphy): I am delighted to fulfil my regular slot winding up our short debate. [Hon. Members: “Too short”] I hear from a sedentary position that it is too short, but what we have done today is take advice from the Conservative
6 Feb 2008 : Column 1027
Opposition’s amendment to the programme motion. We thus allowed three hours for the themed debated and three hours in which to consider amendments. The format of our debate is therefore exactly as the Conservative Opposition wished.

May I also bring to the House’s attention the fact that since I last had the opportunity to fill this slot, Slovenia, Romania and Malta have ratified the Lisbon treaty? I ask the House to celebrate that. The news will doubtless cause great rejoicing throughout this Chamber and across this nation.

I also welcome the hon. Member for South-West Hertfordshire (Mr. Gauke) to the debate. He had his first opportunity to speak in one of the themed debates in this European treaty process. I think the House would accept that he made his case in a thoughtful and occasionally humorous way. I look forward to hearing from him again as the Bill goes through the House.

We also had the opportunity to hear from several of my right hon. and hon. Friends, including my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Frank Dobson) and my hon. Friends the Members for Llanelli (Nia Griffith), for Newcastle upon Tyne, North (Mr. Henderson) and for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell). If time allows, I will respond to the points that they made.

It has been said before, and I shall say so again clearly today, that the European Union helps to make the United Kingdom stronger, safer and better off. However, as I said last night, while the single market has been a remarkable success for the European Union and the United Kingdom, there are still too many people who are not benefiting from the economic growth and prosperity that the single market has brought us. There are 15 million Europeans without the basic literacy skills that they need to compete with the rising global economies. When we conclude the process on the Lisbon treaty, we should apply our political attention and determination to the Lisbon agenda for jobs and growth.

Mr. Cash: We have not heard one word about China or India in the course of the debate so far. How can we compete, and reverse the decline in our market share internationally, if we have a European Union that is locked into the over-regulation and increasing protectionism that will prevent us from competing and engaging in the globalised economy?

Mr. Murphy: I hope that the hon. Gentleman does not mind my saying that I agree with the basic premise of some of his comments. There is an old stereotype of China and India that claims that their role in the global market is to compete at the bottom end. That is the old economic reality and is no longer relevant. Research spending in China is set to catch up with the EU by 2010 and is growing by 20 per cent. a year. When it comes to economic growth, it has taken China 10 years to achieve what Japan took 35 years to achieve. While we agree on some of the analysis underpinning the debate, we often come to different conclusions. The conclusion of the Government is that the evidence makes the case for being more effective through the European Union, as a group of 27 sovereign nations working together where they can in the largest rules-based market in human history.

6 Feb 2008 : Column 1028

Chris Ruane: My hon. Friend mentioned that there are parts of Europe that have not benefited as much as they should from being a member of the EU. The Government introduced objective 1 funding for Wales and other areas of the UK. Why does my hon. Friend think that the Conservatives, when they were in government, failed to apply for objective 1 funding, especially given that they had a pit closure programme, they were running down steel mills, and seaside towns were left to dangle in the wind?

Mr. Murphy: My hon. Friend talks with great experience in such matters and the issue of the previous Government’s record on objective 1 deserves greater focus on another occasion. In recent years, the growth in the labour market in the UK has been in areas that have previously seen endemic and generational unemployment. There is still much more to do, but the improvement has been seen in the most difficult, disadvantaged parts of the UK, many of them represented by my right hon. and hon. Friends. Many of our constituents now compete in a genuine global labour market, and this is the first generation for whom that is the case.

Ms Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): My hon. Friend will have listened to the debate and will be aware of the concerns that have been raised by some hon. Members about the impact of the single market on public services. He will have heard reference to the protocol on services of general interest that was negotiated. In my constituency, we have lifeline ferry services provided by CalMac—Caledonian MacBrayne. The previous Scottish Executive spent more than £17 million on a tendering exercise that resulted in CalMac keeping the tender. Will that exercise now be required, in his view, under the protocol?

Mr. Murphy: I am well aware of the ferries in my hon. Friend’s constituency. I look forward to travelling on one to the Isle of Arran this Sunday with my family. I shall discuss that matter with the ferry crew and others this Sunday. The protocol makes it clear for the first time that the provisions of the treaty do not affect in any way the competence of member states to provide, commission and organise non-economic services of general interest. I look forward to continuing that conversation with my hon. Friend.

Let me turn to the point on health made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras. Maastricht introduced competence on public health, of course, and the treaty makes it clearer than ever before that member states remain solely responsible for organising, delivering, and making decisions about the allocation of resources to their health systems. I look forward to continuing the dialogue with my right hon. Friend. Article 2 says that individual states should organise and deliver the health systems that I have mentioned. The words used are new in the Lisbon treaty and helpfully clarify that the allocation of resources in public health systems is for member states to decide.

Let me turn to the subject of competition, which exercised Conservative Members at great length.

Frank Dobson: Is the Minister telling us that the Lisbon treaty sets aside the ECJ’s Watts decision? If it does, I would welcome it.

6 Feb 2008 : Column 1029

Mr. Murphy: The Lisbon treaty makes a stronger, clearer statement than ever before about the role of national Governments in organising the resources and funding of their national health services. We will discuss the issues in greater detail as the Bill goes through Parliament.

On competition, the protocol has the same legal weight as other treaty texts. The Law Society, of which the hon. Member for South-West Hertfordshire is a member, said that

The hon. Gentleman is a member of the Law Society; I suggest that he should pay more attention to his own organisation’s reflections on the issues.

This afternoon, the statements from the Opposition have made the situation very clear. My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, North said that they have only one ally across Europe. Unusually, he is wrong. I met the Deputy Prime Minister from the ODS in the Czech Republic, Mr. Vondra, and he is strongly supportive of the Lisbon treaty. Conservative Members have had two weeks to name a single conservative party anywhere in Europe that supports their rejection of the treaty, and so far they have been unable to do so.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 176, Noes 352.
Division No. 74]
[4.28 pm


Afriyie, Adam
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Amess, Mr. David
Ancram, rh Mr. Michael
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Bacon, Mr. Richard
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Beresford, Sir Paul
Binley, Mr. Brian
Bone, Mr. Peter
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Bottomley, Peter
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Brokenshire, James
Browning, Angela
Burrowes, Mr. David
Burt, Alistair
Butterfill, Sir John
Cameron, rh Mr. David
Campbell, Mr. Gregory
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clappison, Mr. James
Clark, Greg
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cox, Mr. Geoffrey
Crabb, Mr. Stephen
Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth)
Davies, Philip
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice and Howden)
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M.
Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen
Dorries, Mrs. Nadine
Duddridge, James
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain
Dunne, Mr. Philip
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Evans, Mr. Nigel
Evennett, Mr. David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Mr. Michael
Field, Mr. Mark
Francois, Mr. Mark
Fraser, Mr. Christopher
Gale, Mr. Roger
Garnier, Mr. Edward
Gauke, Mr. David
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gray, Mr. James
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Greenway, Mr. John
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Hague, rh Mr. William
Hammond, Mr. Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Harper, Mr. Mark
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David

Hendry, Charles
Herbert, Nick
Hermon, Lady
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holloway, Mr. Adam
Horam, Mr. John
Howarth, Mr. Gerald
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Jones, Mr. David
Kawczynski, Daniel
Key, Robert
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Laing, Mrs. Eleanor
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Leigh, Mr. Edward
Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
Maclean, rh David
Main, Anne
Malins, Mr. Humfrey
Maples, Mr. John
Mates, rh Mr. Michael
Maude, rh Mr. Francis
May, rh Mrs. Theresa
McCrea, Dr. William
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Mercer, Patrick
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mundell, David
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Osborne, Mr. George
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, Mr. James
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Pickles, Mr. Eric
Pritchard, Mark
Randall, Mr. John
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, Mr. David
Scott, Mr. Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, David
Simpson, Mr. Keith
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Spelman, Mrs. Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob
Spring, Mr. Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Mr. Anthony
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Swire, Mr. Hugo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Tredinnick, David
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Viggers, Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Walter, Mr. Robert
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Whittingdale, Mr. John
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, Mr. David
Wilshire, Mr. David
Wilson, Sammy
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Wright, Jeremy
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Crispin Blunt and
Mr. Richard Benyon

Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Mr. David
Anderson, Janet
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Austin, John
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Baker, Norman
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Beith, rh Mr. Alan
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta

Blears, rh Hazel
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Blunkett, rh Mr. David
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Bradshaw, Mr. Ben
Brake, Tom
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brennan, Kevin
Brooke, Annette
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Burt, Lorely
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byers, rh Mr. Stephen
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Caton, Mr. Martin
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Ms Katy
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Crausby, Mr. David
Cruddas, Jon
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire
Davey, Mr. Edward
David, Mr. Wayne
Davies, Mr. Dai
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Devine, Mr. Jim
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Etherington, Bill
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Don
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, Andrew
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gidley, Sandra
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, Paul
Goldsworthy, Julia
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Dr. Evan
Harris, Mr. Tom
Harvey, Nick
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, John
Heath, Mr. David
Hemming, John
Henderson, Mr. Doug
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hood, Mr. Jim
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Horwood, Martin
Hosie, Stewart
Howarth, David
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley
Huhne, Chris
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Hunter, Mark
Hutton, rh Mr. John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Ingram, rh Mr. Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald

Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Keetch, Mr. Paul
Kelly, rh Ruth
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles
Khan, Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, Jim
Kramer, Susan
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lamb, Norman
Lammy, Mr. David
Laws, Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leech, Mr. John
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Mr. Ivan
Linton, Martin
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Lucas, Ian
Mackinlay, Andrew
MacNeil, Mr. Angus
MacShane, rh Mr. Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Mr. Khalid
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Marshall, Mr. David
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McCartney, rh Mr. Ian
McFadden, Mr. Pat
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, Mrs. Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McNulty, rh Mr. Tony
Meacher, rh Mr. Michael
Meale, Mr. Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Mr. Alan
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Moore, Mr. Michael
Moran, Margaret
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Morley, rh Mr. Elliot
Mudie, Mr. George
Mulholland, Greg
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Oaten, Mr. Mark
Olner, Mr. Bill
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Price, Adam
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Pugh, Dr. John
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Purnell, rh James
Rammell, Bill
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, Mr. Alan
Reid, rh John
Rennie, Willie
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rogerson, Dan
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Rowen, Paul
Roy, Mr. Frank
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Bob
Russell, Christine
Ryan, rh Joan
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad
Seabeck, Alison
Sharma, Mr. Virendra
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Simpson, Alan
Singh, Mr. Marsha
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andy
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, Geraldine
Smith, John
Smith, Sir Robert
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Stunell, Andrew
Tami, Mark
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, David
Taylor, Matthew
Teather, Sarah

Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thurso, John
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Mr. Neil
Twigg, Derek
Vaz, rh Keith
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Waltho, Lynda
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Watson, Mr. Tom
Watts, Mr. Dave
Webb, Steve
Weir, Mr. Mike
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mark
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willis, Mr. Phil
Willott, Jenny
Wills, Mr. Michael
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wishart, Pete
Wood, Mike
Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wyatt, Derek
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Noes:

Siobhain McDonagh and
Tony Cunningham
Question accordingly negatived.
6 Feb 2008 : Column 1030

6 Feb 2008 : Column 1031

6 Feb 2008 : Column 1032

6 Feb 2008 : Column 1033

It being more than three hours after the commencement of proceedings on the motion, Mr. Deputy Speaker put forthwith t he Main Question, pursuant to Order [28 January]:

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