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Amendment proposed: No. 186, in page 1, line 12, after ‘excluding’, insert—
‘(i) Article 2, paragraph 289, replacement Article 308 TEC (TFEU) relating to action within the framework of policies defined in the Treaties where the Treaties have not provided the necessary powers; and
(ii)’.— [Mr. Cash.]
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The Committee divided: Ayes 154, Noes 300.
AYES
Afriyie, Adam
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Amess, Mr. David
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Baldry, Tony
Baron, Mr. John
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Binley, Mr. Brian
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Bone, Mr. Peter
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Bottomley, Peter
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Brokenshire, James
Browning, Angela
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burrowes, Mr. David
Burt, Alistair
Campbell, Mr. Gregory
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clappison, Mr. James
Cox, Mr. Geoffrey
Crabb, Mr. Stephen
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth)
Davies, Philip
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dodds, Mr. Nigel
Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen
Drew, Mr. David
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain
Dunne, Mr. Philip
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Evans, Mr. Nigel
Evennett, Mr. David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Mr. Michael
Field, Mr. Mark
Francois, Mr. Mark
Fraser, Mr. Christopher
Gale, Mr. Roger
Garnier, Mr. Edward
Gauke, Mr. David
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gray, Mr. James
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Greenway, Mr. John
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harper, Mr. Mark
Hayes, Mr. John
Heald, Mr. Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, Nick
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Horam, Mr. John
Howard, rh Mr. Michael
Howarth, Mr. Gerald
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Jenkin, Mr. Bernard
Jones, Mr. David
Kawczynski, Daniel
Key, Robert
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lancaster, Mr. Mark
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
Maclean, rh David
Main, Anne
Malins, Mr. Humfrey
Maples, Mr. John
Mates, rh Mr. Michael
May, rh Mrs. Theresa
McCrea, Dr. William
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mundell, David
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Osborne, Mr. George
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, Mr. James
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Penrose, John
Pickles, Mr. Eric
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Randall, Mr. John
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Robinson, rh Mr. Peter
Ruffley, Mr. David
Scott, Mr. Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Simpson, Alan
Simpson, David
Simpson, Mr. Keith
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob
Stanley, rh Sir John
Stuart, Mr. Graham
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Swire, Mr. Hugo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Viggers, Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Whittingdale, Mr. John
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, Mr. David
Wilshire, Mr. David
Wilson, Sammy
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Yeo, Mr. Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Ayes:
James Duddridge and
Jeremy Wright
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Mr. David
Anderson, Janet
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Austin, John
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Bradshaw, Mr. Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Des
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Byrne, Mr. Liam
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Chaytor, Mr. David
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Ms Katy
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clelland, Mr. David
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire
David, Mr. Wayne
Davies, Mr. Dai
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Devine, Mr. Jim
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Farrelly, Paul
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, Paul
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr. Tom
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, John
Henderson, Mr. Doug
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hood, Mr. Jim
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Hosie, Stewart
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Ingram, rh Mr. Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Kelly, rh Ruth
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Jane
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Mr. Ivan
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
Mackinlay, Andrew
MacShane, rh Mr. Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCarthy, Kerry
McDonagh, Siobhain
McFadden, Mr. Pat
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, Mrs. Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McNulty, rh Mr. Tony
Meacher, rh Mr. Michael
Meale, Mr. Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Mr. Alan
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Moffat, Anne
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Moran, Margaret
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Morley, rh Mr. Elliot
Mudie, Mr. George
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mr. Mike
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Olner, Mr. Bill
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Prescott, rh Mr. John
Price, Adam
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Purnell, rh James
Rammell, Bill
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, rh John
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Christine
Ryan, rh Joan
Salmond, rh Mr. Alex
Salter, Martin
Seabeck, Alison
Sharma, Mr. Virendra
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andy
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, Geraldine
Smith, rh Jacqui
Smith, John
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, Ian
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, David
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Mr. Paul
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Twigg, Derek
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Watson, Mr. Tom
Watts, Mr. Dave
Weir, Mr. Mike
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Williams, Hywel
Wills, Mr. Michael
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wishart, Pete
Wood, Mike
Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Frank Roy and
Mr. Sadiq Khan
Question accordingly negatived.
To report progress and ask leave to sit again.— [Mr. Blizzard.]
Committee report progress; to sit again tomorrow.
Local Government
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the draft Cheshire (Structural Changes) Order 2008, which was laid before this House on 31st January, be approved.—[Mr. Jim Murphy.]
11.37 pm
The Minister for Local Government (John Healey): Tonight we are considering the draft order to implement the proposal to establish two new unitary councils for Cheshire. The proposal was originally made to us by Chester city council, subsequently endorsed and enjoined by three other district councils—Ellesmere Port and Neston, Macclesfield and Vale Royal. This is not the Government’s proposal; it is not the Government’s prescription for local government arrangements in Cheshire. It has been made to us by democratically elected and accountable councils, and it has been drawn up by those councils, which have discussed these views in their areas. They believe that it will put in place for the people and the businesses of Cheshire the best form of governance for the future of the area.
Ann Winterton (Congleton) (Con): May I tell the Minister that in fact what he has just said is absolutely untrue in that the people of Cheshire do not want this? What was the Government’s preferred option for Cheshire?
John Healey: If the hon. Lady checks the record tomorrow she will find that precisely what I said is correct—that this was a proposal not from the Government but from local councils, that it was proposed by them and that we considered it alongside other proposals, including one from the county council, according to the five criteria that we set out at the very start of the process back in October 2006.
Mr. Stephen O'Brien (Eddisbury) (Con): Is the Minister in effect disowning responsibility for the proposal and saying that he is no more than a delegate of Chester city council in regard to this proposal, rather than a Minister in a Government with a democratic accountability and a judgment that should be scrutinised?
John Healey: Far from disowning the proposal, I come to the House with an order that proposes to put in place the arrangements that have been drawn up and put to us by councils in the Cheshire area.
Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody (Crewe and Nantwich) (Lab): Come now!
John Healey: The city of Chester first submitted the proposal; it was enjoined and is now supported by three other district councils and by other bodies that I shall detail in a moment.
Mrs. Dunwoody: The Minister is being disingenuous, to say the least. Why is he not proud of the arrangement that he has made? Six district councils are involved. Why have we suddenly become the whipping boy and handmaiden of Chester? Why does he not say plainly that he and his Department proposed this in the first place and have constantly changed the goalposts to progress this very shoddy matter?
John Healey: Let me be clear. My Department certainly proposed the process and invited councils in two-tier areas across England to submit proposals for unitary arrangements. The minority of areas and councils submitted proposals, and the minority of those proposals have got to the stage of our looking to implement them.
My point is simply this, and I make it first to my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody): this process of putting in place unitary council arrangements is entirely different from the processes established by previous Governments. Those processes were centrally defined and the proposals came from the centre. In this instance, we have assessed what has been put to us. I have come to the House proposing to put this proposal into law because we believe that it and the arrangements offer a form of governance for the people, businesses and communities of Cheshire that will suit the future.
Christine Russell (City of Chester) (Lab): Will my hon. Friend confirm that the bid of January 2007 was submitted by Chester city council on behalf of the six districts of Cheshire? All six districts signed up to it, including— [Interruption.]
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. Members must cease intervening from a sedentary position. If they want to intervene, they should do so in the normal way so that we can have a sensible debate.
John Healey: Cheshire was in a relatively unusual situation compared with other parts of the country. Not only were two competing proposals submitted under the same single process but, uniquely, both proposals met the five criteria that we established at the outset. That was not the situation anywhere else in the country.
We had to set out a way of making a judgment between the two proposals, and in June we published our arrangements and made clear how we would carry them out. It was to be on the basis of which of the proposals, based on the evidence submitted to us, would deliver to a greater extent the benefits for which we were looking in three principal areas—first, strategic leadership; secondly, the empowerment of local people and local neighbourhoods; and thirdly, quality public services. Those made up our yardstick to try to distinguish between the relative merits of the two proposals.
Mr. George Osborne (Tatton) (Con): The Minister drew a comparison with the ways that previous Governments had handled local government reorganisation. Will he confirm that last time the current Government considered this in the north-west—in relation to what would happen if people voted for a regional assembly in the north-west, which never took place because the Government did not hold the referendum—there was a commitment also to have a referendum question on local government reorganisation? Why have the Government abandoned the practice that they advocated just a couple of years ago? The Minister talks about empowering the people; why has he decided on this occasion not to let the people decide?
John Healey: Because we set out in this process to approach the matter in an entirely different way—to be prepared to entertain proposals that were drawn up by elected councils representing their area and put to us as a Government. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that in 2004, under this Government, there was a question of potentially reorganising local government in Cheshire as part of the consideration of the wider referendum question on an elected regional assembly for the north-west. It was in the mid-1990s, under the previous Government of his party, that Cheshire was subject to potential reorganisation under the Banham proposals. As hon. Members who represent these parts of the county will know much better than I do, this is the third potential local government reorganisation in under 15 years. There comes a point when that continuing uncertainty starts to be a disadvantage, and there is a case for saying that it is important to make a decision and then allow those in the local areas to get on and try to implement it.
Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) (LD): I am obviously not a Cheshire MP, but I was born in Cheshire. Let me express a concern that I sense is felt by many colleagues of all parties. This proposal, yet again, does a further job of breaking up an historic shire community that has already been sliced off at one edge around Manchester and sliced off at the other edge. It absolutely will not create what the Government say elsewhere that they want—a sense of real community cohesion. In that respect, it is the worst option, not the best option.
John Healey: I hope that I will get the chance to come to that a little later. However, that is not the assessment that we have made of the potential for offering local areas a greater opportunity to be involved and to have an influence over decision making. The hon. Gentleman may have been born in Cheshire, but he misrepresents the nature of that unified, integrated, remaining historic shire county. It was the mid-1990s reorganisation that led to the carving out of Halton and Warrington.
Truth be told, the historic county of Cheshire has been broken up into bits previously. The question now is what is the best form of governance for the future within the area that is covered by Cheshire county council. I recognise that several Opposition Members argue for the status quo, but our starting point is that the general case for unitary local government is strong. It is a way of overcoming some of the well- established problems with county and district local government. The public are generally confused. The delivery of services can be fragmented. Local leaderships are sometimes competing. There is often duplication and inefficiency in the way that things are delivered. In the case of Cheshire, without imposing a unitary arrangement, we are close to arriving at a potential set of arrangements that will allow unitary local government for its people, based on the proposal that was originally put to us by City of Chester council.
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