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Yes, I do. With saviour siblings, there is also embryo selection, which is used widely in IVF treatment, and I have concerns about embryos being discarded because of the possibility of disability. Embryo selection could be classed as the ultimate form of disability discrimination. Saying that someone cannot be born because they would have a disability is terrible. I know that we are not discussing that issue in
the Bill today, but when we discuss saviour siblings and selecting embryos, we are going into serious issues and unforeseen territory.
I urge caution on this issue. We need a good debate and for hon. Members to enter it with open minds. I am grateful to the Government for allowing several free votesnot quite enough, but they have made some progress. I hope that many Members contribute to this extremely important debate.
John Bercow (Buckingham) (Con): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (Geraldine Smith), to whose principled speech I listened with respect but, sadly, without agreement.
It is vital that we all, from whatever part of the House we come, take the responsibility of addressing a wide range of issues relevant to the Bill. We must address the issues of infertility, congenital disease, miscarriage and the development of human embryos. We must address how to apply fruitful research to the development of effective treatment, and what constitutes, what causes and what might cure or alleviate serious diseases. We must address how we can improve contraception in this country, and we must address the issue of the genes and chromosomal abnormalities that give rise to the list of distressing phenomena with which all Members of the House are familiar.
My starting point is that I have always felt that where the science is essentially persuasive, as I believe it to be, we should have a model of facilitation. We should go with embryo research because of the tremendous human opportunities that it offers. That is to say, I take an empiricist, pragmatic, instrumental view, rather than the view that some abstract principle should inveigh against the possibility that such research should be allowed or extended.
Some of the media treatment of the scientists who are working day in, day out, week in, week out, and month in, month out is a travesty. It does no credit to the media, and it does a gross disservice to those outstanding public servants who are doing their best for infertile women, for people suffering from terrible diseases and for children in some of the most appalling situations. They are doing their best for this country and they are doing this country proud.
Alistair Burt (North-East Bedfordshire) (Con): My hon. Friend gives as his central motivation the idea that when he can see science leading somewhere, that process should be facilitated. But where does he place the sticking point? Even if there were an argument that science could take us in a beneficial direction, at what point would he start to feel uncomfortable? How does he make that judgment, and how does he expect other people to make such a judgment?
I shall offer two answers to my hon. Friend, neither of which will satisfy him, but both of which seem to me to be sound. First, I am wholly opposed to straightforward human cloning, and I suspect that that would be a majority view across the House. That is not what is planned or portended by the
Bill. Secondly, I say to my hon. Friend: let politicians for a moment, rather uncharacteristically, assume the mantle of humility. I suspect that none of us in this House is as great an expert as Sir Martin Evans or some of the other individuals to whom reference has been made. I know that there is expertise in the House, which is respected, but we cannot compete with that other expertise.
We should not close off the possibilities of research simply because a Member, who is possibly already geared up to vote in a particular direction, chooses to seize on a given research project or a particular academic in order to advance a view that we should not proceed with a particular method. I believe in a degree of competition. I do not believe that the mere existence of alternatives is sufficient to allow us credibly or responsibly to say, We wont use that mechanism. Well stick to another. Well satisfy ourselves with something that already applies. I believe that there should be plenty of opportunities for different methods to be used, in the hope that eventually one or more will yield positive results.
Dr. John Pugh (Southport) (LD): Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that although adult stem cell research is morally unproblematic, there is a distinction to be drawn here? Embryonic stem cell research is clearly morally problematic; otherwise, we would not be here debating it.
John Bercow: The kind of stem cell research that the hon. Gentleman supports might not attract the same level of criticism, but, on the strength of the information that I have garnered thus far, I am sceptical as to whether it is likely to deliver the scale and quality of outcomes that could be achieved by the kind of embryo research planned for in the Bill. I respect the hon. Gentlemans position, but I stand by the view that we need all sorts of different sources of potential improvement. We should not act as the exclusive arbiters in favour of one source, rather than of either of the other two main sources that are on the table at the moment.
Let me confront some of the key issues, as other hon. Members have honourably and powerfully done. The first is the issue of admixed embryos. I respect the fact that some Members feel an almost overwhelming revulsion at the idea. I do not share that feeling. I have said that I am motivated by the pursuit of results, and I believe that the pragmatic arguments are strong. There is a shortage of human eggs, and the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) and others have referred to another relevant factor in this contextthe fact that the whole process of egg harvesting is difficult, burdensome and hazardous. Moreover, for a proportionadmittedly only a small proportionof women, it is potentially fatal. My view is that if we can efficiently deploy an alternative by using animal eggs as part of the mix instead, there will be much to commend that. I look forward to the possibilityI put it no more strongly than thatthat that process might yield beneficial results.
I would simply say to my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), for whom I have the highest regard and personal affection, that I hope he would accept that all the morality is not to be
found on one side. Of course he is motivated by moral considerations, and so am I. I cannot stand idly by and look at the situation of someone who is withered and debilitated by the most appalling diseasebe it Parkinsons, Alzheimers or motor neurone diseaseknowing that there might be a possibility of a cure or alleviation by one or more of the methods provided for in the Bill. I cannot simply turn away, saying that some abstract theory, dogmatic reasoning or religious insistence prevents me from giving the go-ahead to that work. That is where I am coming from on this subject.
There are similar moral considerations with regard to saviour siblings. Let me confront the point that is most regularly and passionately made against the concept. The notion is that what is entailed is the bringing into being of an additional human being for a purely utilitarian purpose. It is said that this would devalue the individual, that that person might suffer subsequently and that the process would be intrinsically wrong. My view is that, in the first instance, that should be a judgment for the prospective parent or parents. If the prospective parent says to himself or herselfor if the partnership decidesthat this is something that they want to do because a sibling can be helped, a disease can be cured or a life can be saved and, as a consequence, extended, I have respect for that. The pursuit of tissue-typing offers the best and most obvious example of the deployment of the potential of scientific research for the ultimate purposethe saving or improvement of human life. These processes exist not in isolation but to provide a particular benefit.
Mr. Cash: Would my hon. Friend extend his argument to make these therapeutic opportunities universal, or does he accept that only some people are likely to benefit from them, rather than all those who want them?
John Bercow: I can certainly conceive that not everyone who wishes to benefit will do so. If my hon. Friend is encouraging meI am not sure whether this was the gravamen of his interventionin the direction of saying that more and more people should so benefit, my answer is in the affirmative. I thought that I had made it clear that this is essentially a good thing, which we should welcome and which the Bill should allow to be introduced and extended.
The whole question of the so-called need for a father is writ large in our considerations. My view, for what it is worth, is that the Governments proposal is perfectly reasonable. I am not convinced that the insertion of the phrase supportive parenting was necessary. It was a compromise that was reached in the other place, but the earlier formulation seemed perfectly satisfactory. However, I shall not castigate the Government for attempting to meet reasonedif, in my view, incorrect criticism. They have come up with a form of words that is unobjectionable.
My view is that we should not discriminate. We should not have class actions. We should not have the dogmatic exclusion of whole categories of people. We have equality legislation with which these provisions should be compatible. My anxiety is that the call to reinsert the need for a father is not grounded in evidence but driven by preconceptions and, in somealthough not allcases, by rank prejudice. That is wrong. Judgments should be made on the basis of the individual case, not on the strength of a theory.
John Bercow: I have already given way generously, as my hon. Friend will testify. I hope that he will have the opportunity to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and to favour the House with his own views.
Let us have a fusion, as in the best traditions of this country acting pragmatically and this Parliament thinking sensibly, between science, appropriatein some cases robustregulation, and the social mores of our society today.
I applaud the political record and legislative achievementin this matter as in almost every otherof my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke). He, as a social liberala term he used himselfwill confirm that attitudes today are different from those that applied 20 years ago. The idea that we have not had enough time to consider the issues is preposterous. Frankly, those who are opposed in principle always level that objection, and no time would be sufficient for them fully to exhaust their list of objections, prejudices and disagreements.
We have had a good chancethe Government have handled the process very fairly indeedand this is a decent Bill. It is a progressive piece of social reform that offers the chance of making a significant improvement in the quality of life for thousands and thousands of people in this country. I welcome the Bill and hope that it will enjoy a safe passage.
Dr. Brian Iddon (Bolton, South-East) (Lab): I am an enthusiastic supporter of the Bill. If anyone is in any doubt about any of its clauses, I recommend that they read the excellent debates in the other place, which were of a very high standard. I congratulate our peers, who have considerable expertise. I would particularly congratulate Lord Darzi of Denham and Baroness Royall of Blaisdon on the professional way in which they steered the Bill through the other place.
Personally, I am excited about the potential for research that will be made possible by the application of the Bill when enacted. It can bring about a major step change in the advance of medical research. There have been important milestones on this route, many of which were controversial and were opposed vigorously in their own day. Fortunately, society has grown to accept those technologies today, so let me mention one or two examples.
Organ transplant surgery was pioneered in South Africa, especially by Christiaan Barnards work on heart transplant surgery in December 1967. He initially met a lot of opposition, but heart transplant surgery is now accepted and I do not hear much opposition to it in this day and age. Another exampleit has already been mentionedis in vitro fertilisation. It was pioneered by Patrick Steptoe and Robert Edwards, and led to the birth of Louise Brown, the first so-called test-tube baby, at Oldham District and General hospital on 24 July 197830 years ago now. That technology, too, was highly controversial in its day, but we have grown to accept it. On the birth of Louise Brown, the Archbishop of St. Andrews and Edinburgh, Cardinal Gordon Gray, said:
I have grave misgivings about the possible implications and consequences for the future.
Throughout time, there has been a conflict between religion and science; we should remember Galileo, for example. It seems almost impossible to believe today, but Harveys description of the circulation of the blood and the hearts role in it met large objections in his day.
Tremendous advances have been made in the cure of disease, especially since the 1930s when the sulphonamides were bred out of our dyestuffs industry. As a result, deaths from cancer, infectious diseases and cardiovascular diseases are all going down. However, a number of other diseasessome rare and mostly devastating for the people who have themare not susceptible to cures by the use of modern drugs or by advanced surgery. A new breed of drugs, called biological drugs200 of them in use today worldwidehave opened up some new treatments within the last 20 years for cancer, AIDS, neurological disorders, cancer-induced anaemia, heart disease, diabetes and some rare genetic disorders.
Currently, there are some very difficult-to-treat diseases, including most of the genetic diseases and debilitating degenerative diseases such as muscular dystrophy, muscular sclerosis, motor neurone disease, Alzheimers disease and Parkinsons disease. This Bill gives hope for future generations of people who might suffer from those devastating diseases, and it holds out hope, too, for the millions who suffer from diabetes and heart disease, and for those who damage their spines, usually in accidents.
We hope that by taking the nuclei out of a skin cell or other cell of sufferers of these diseases and creating admixed human embryos, which the Bill deals with, scientists will be able to find out how those diseases develop, with the ultimate goal of stopping them developing at all in every individual who might otherwise have acquired them. The intention is, ultimately, to lead to cures for those people, but the Bill is primarily about the necessary research. I would not want to mislead anyone by saying that there will be cures for some of these diseases tomorrow, next year or even in 10 years, as we are embarked on long-term research. Britain leads the world in embryo research, as demonstrated by the award of the 2007 Nobel prize for physiology or medicine to Sir Martin Evans of Cardiff university.
Patrick Hall: My hon. Friend has touched on a very important issue. Many people who object to stem cell research say that in all the time for which it has been undertaken it has produced no real resultsbut is it not the case that even with ordinary pharmaceutical developments, and the medicines that we are now all used to, the lead time is at least 10 years?
Dr. Iddon: With todays biological drugs, that has extended to 20 years. However, I do not agree that there have been no results from stem cell research. I think it is a remarkable field of research, which is advancing more quickly than the legislation to deal with it. That is the point, and that is why we are here nowbecause the legislation is not keeping up with the pace of development in this field.
I was privileged to be a member of the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee when it published a seminal report entitled Human Reproductive Technologies and the Law in March 2005. I have to tell right hon. and hon. Members that if the then Chairman, my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, North (Dr. Gibson), and I had not decided to guillotine the Committeesomething that I had not previously thought possible, but guillotine the Committee we didthat report would never have seen the light of day. That drastic action was necessary because 130 amendments had been tabled; this was shortly before the general election of 2005. I am very pleased that I did that, because that report, produced by Committee members of all political parties, was the seminal report on which all the subsequent Government consultations were based. Select Committees can do some very useful things. We produced other reportsfor example, on the Governments proposals for the regulation of hybrid and chimera embryos and, more recently, on the science of abortionand in my opinion, those three reports provide the bedrock for this debate.
I do not see abortion mentioned in any of the clauses, and I am disappointed that we are going to spend as many as three hours discussing that issue. I am not denying that abortion is an important subject, but there are already many technical difficulties in the Bill that hon. Members need to get a grip on. In my humble opinion, we need all the time available to discuss all the issues mentioned so far, and others that have not been mentioned, without getting bogged down in the difficult debate about abortion. Personally, I believe that abortion should be the subject of a quite separate debate; indeed, we have already had many debates on it.
Members seem greatly preoccupied with adult stem cells and cells that have been rewound to their embryonic state. This research is indeed important, but let us not forget that when we use adult stem cells, they may have built into them an inherent mutation. That is the danger of adult stem cell research. It may well be that we will find techniques for detecting those mutations in adult stem cells, but I would not like to use therapy from adult stem cells and produce a mutation, or produce a fault in an individual by using them.
Let me also tell the House about the work done in Japan by Professor Yamanakas group, and at the university of Wisconsin in the United States, to reprogramme a skin fibroblast. Four genes are necessary for that reprogramming, and one is an oncogenea gene that produces cancer. It is not therefore surprising that when Professor Shinya Yamanakas group in Japan injected stem cells into a four-cell mouse blastocyst and embedded it in a womb, the full-term mouse that developed contained tumours in almost every part of its body. I would not therefore like right hon. and hon. Members to feel that we can completely abandon stem cell research using human embryos or cytoplasmic hybrid embryos, and rely entirely on either rewinding adult cells, or even using adult stem cells. All three lines of research must continue, because faults are inherent in each of them. At the moment we do not know which one will tell us how diseases will develop or produce the best therapeutic results.
In conclusion, let me make a plea to the House. For a long time, in listening to debates in the House on both animals and humans, I have thought that a parliamentary bioethics committee was needednot a national bioethics committee. If Members want to observe the difference between the two, I urge them to read the articles in Science in Parliament, which will appear on their desks next week, and an article in The Observer that Baroness Warnock has already written. Those ought to be part of the debate. I agree that we should be led by a discussion of ethics, and there is not enough time on the Floor of the House to discuss all the issues and the ethics involved at the same time.
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