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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Joan Ruddock):
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker) for his support. Let us be absolutely clear about just how ambitious the Bill is. When it
receives Royal Assent—in a few months’ time, I hope—the UK will be the first country in the world to have a legally binding, long-term framework to cut CO2 emissions and adapt to climate change. The framework of binding targets and budgets, and the accompanying obligations on the Government, supported by maximum transparency and by parliamentary oversight, will drive the UK’s transition to the low-carbon economy that we need both to play our part in that crucial global effort and to secure our own economic future.
I very much welcome the generally positive tone of today’s debate. The hon. Member for East Surrey (Mr. Ainsworth), in his opening remarks, said that the Bill is probably the most important piece of environmental legislation in a generation. He is correct. He asked me about clause 1 and the purpose of the Bill. May I tell him that any attempt to hold the world to a 2° C temperature rise depends on every country playing its part? It cannot be a unilateral move, and we therefore have difficulty accepting his point. He asked about the Prime Minister being responsible for reporting, but we have a Cabinet Government, and the whole Government are bound by the Bill and the whole Government will have to report in due course.
The hon. Gentleman asked about overseas credits, as did the hon. Member for Northavon (Steve Webb). The majority of emissions savings will, indeed, come from our domestic effort, but the fact is that in the emissions trading scheme, 50 per cent. of our emissions can be dealt with by companies making their own decisions. They can, for example, make reductions in a plant in Germany rather than in one in the UK. If we want the trading scheme, we cannot have limits on the emissions and credits that we can obtain overseas. The hon. Member for East Surrey asked about Lord Turner. The most important thing that he will do as the chair of the new committee will be to set the advice to the Government on those first budgets. That he will do. He will leave in the new year, but not until that most important job is done.
My many hon. Friends have made very constructive speeches, but I have no time to go into all of them. The hon. Member for Northavon rather failed to rise to the occasion, although far be it from me to call his contribution a piddling little speech. He spoke about the 80 per cent. target. Of course, the Bill says “at least” 60 per cent, and we have made it very clear that in the reference to the Climate Change Committee, we have allowed for the fact that the provision may be tightened to 80 per cent. The hon. Gentleman has to wait only until the end of this year, when that decision will be taken.
The hon. Member for South Suffolk (Mr. Yeo) made a good speech. I was grateful to him for agreeing that progress against the 2020 interim target is the most important issue. He offered to supply some names for Lord Turner’s replacement, and we would be delighted to hear any names from the hon. Gentleman.
My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton (Linda Gilroy), in a very supportive speech, spoke about the importance of the oceans—one area about which we are extremely conscious—and of going beyond the tales in the tabloid press, which fail to encourage people to take their responsibilities seriously.
My hon. Friend the Member for Morley and Rothwell (Colin Challen) spoke with his usual expertise and commitment. The Bill requires the committee to publish its advice and the reasons for it, so if the Government were to set a target at a different level, they would have to say why. The issue of transparency is covered.
Many hon. Members referred to aviation and shipping. Those matters are best addressed at the international level, working through the United Nations, the International Civil Aviation Authority and the International Maritime Organisation. We are taking action in Europe. We have been leading in Europe on the question of including aviation and shipping emissions. However, complex issues are involved and, as was recognised in the other place, we need expert advice from the Committee on Climate Change before we take a decision on whether to include international aviation and shipping emissions in our targets under the Bill.
The right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (David Maclean) made an important contribution on forests and biodiversity and the need to assist developing economies. We can all bear that in mind in the debate about whether we accept a restriction on the credits that we obtain overseas.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West and Royton (Mr. Meacher), in a typically challenging speech, discussed mandatory reporting by companies. The Companies Act 2006 provides for reporting on environmental issues by listed companies, but it is too early to say how well they are reporting and what they are reporting on. When Lord Rooker accepted the amendment in the House of Lords, he said that the Government would have to consider the matter further, and that is what we will do. Kingsnorth has not yet been licensed, and we cannot anticipate what will happen in that respect.
The hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) spoke on the basis of his international experience and referred to the importance of setting an example. He mentioned the need to convince China. We totally agree, and we work very closely with China. That is why carbon capture and storage is so important.
My hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon (Anne Snelgrove) made a very supportive speech. I am grateful for her remarks, particularly about the contribution of individuals, who are responsible for 40 per cent. of all the emissions that arise in this country. Our “Act on CO2” campaign and advice line are the best means by which individuals can contribute. As she said, the contribution of communities is also extremely important. She asked about the Government needing to do more on the question of buildings. All Departments are making greater efforts in relation to energy efficiency and sustainable development in general. The carbon reduction commitment, which is part of the Bill, will cover large councils and Departments and help to drive down emissions.
The hon. Member for Cambridge (David Howarth) agreed that individuals should play their part by using their power in the marketplace and referred to reporting by companies, which I have already dealt with. We very much agree with his sentiments.
Joan Ruddock: I cannot give way. [Hon. Members: “Give way!”] I cannot; there is no time.
I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Mr. Morley) and to the great contribution that he makes, particularly as president of GLOBE International. He raised several points that I think that I have covered already. He referred to recycling as being absolutely crucial in reducing emissions. That is very important. He is entirely right about bringing about behavioural change on waste as opposed to other means. He spoke about annual targets. Every year, the committee will report to Parliament on progress, and every year the Government must respond. We do not support annual targets because— [ Interruption. ]
Mr. Speaker: Order. The Minister has the Floor. It is not wise for the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr. Lilley) to say what he is saying. It is clear that the hon. Lady is not giving way, so let her continue with her speech. The right hon. Gentleman has had his tuppence worth.
Joan Ruddock: I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker. I am trying to cover the points that were made.
As I said, my right hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe referred to targets. The committee will report to Parliament on progress, and every year, the Government must respond. We do not, however, support annual targets because there is always some variability in emissions each year—weather being an obvious case in point. Having annual targets would be a great problem, but there will be reporting and transparency, and there will be the opportunity for everyone to comment.
In the contributions of the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr. Lilley) and the hon. Members for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie) and for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Maples), the true voice of conservatism was heard tonight—completely out of step with the majority of scientists. In February last year, the fourth assessment report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change evaluated all available lines of evidence and concluded that there was a 90 per cent. chance that human emissions have caused most of the warming since 1950. That is the clearest answer to the points that the right hon. Gentleman raised.
Mr. Lilley Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Speaker: Order. The right hon. Gentleman knows better, and he is defying the Chair now. He has shifted the ground a bit, and he should behave himself. He usually does.
Joan Ruddock: On the question of finances and the impact assessment raised by the right hon. Gentleman, we will be happy to deal with the matter in Committee. It would be impossible for me, given the moments that I have left, to deal with the points that he—
Mr. Tyrie: Will the Minister give way?
Joan Ruddock: No, I am sorry. I have made it very clear that I am trying to answer the points that were made in the debate.
My hon. Friend the Member for City of York (Hugh Bayley) provided the antidote to those sceptics who spoke, indicating that less carbon dependency by our companies can lead to greater profitability. My hon.
Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Dr. Turner) said that policies should have climate impact assessments. I agree with him entirely, and all of our policies and pieces of legislation are required to have a climate impact assessment as part of their regulatory impact assessments.
My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) has done more than anyone to advance the adaptation debate. I congratulate him on that. He has done a huge amount of work, but a huge amount of work on the matter is going on in the Government. I am the Minister with responsibility for adaptation, and we are involving bodies at every level, such as local authorities and regional development agencies. We have the Climate Change Committee, the UK climate impacts programme and a raft of measures through which we will get a proper assessment of risks, a programme of adaptation measures to address those risks and new powers to require reporting by public authorities.
I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Kidney) for his supportive speech. He raised the issue of feed-in tariffs, which are under consideration. The right hon. Member for Fylde (Mr. Jack), in a powerful speech, showed a great deal of understanding of our global responsibilities and the importance of the UK being at the top table. My hon. Friend the Member for Brent, North (Barry Gardiner) made an important contribution on ecosystems and biodiversity, development and adaptation commitments and the important issue of population. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, South (Alan Simpson) made a passionate speech bringing to bear his great experience on this issue, and I know that he will keep us on our toes throughout the Committee.
The hon. Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Hurd), in the final moments, asked whether we would water down the Bill. We have no intention of watering it down. The questions of the hon. Member for South-West Devon (Mr. Streeter) were answered by my hon. Friend the Member for Bury, North (Mr. Chaytor), to whom I pay tribute for his hugely consistent campaigning and the welcome that he gave to the Bill.
It is clear that the UK has a fine record of leadership internationally on the enormously challenging issue that we have been discussing. The Bill provides the essential framework for ensuring that our response at home is commensurate with the challenge. The House has deliberated on few more serious issues than climate change.
Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time:—
The House divided: Ayes 344, Noes 3.
AYES
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Amess, Mr. David
Ancram, rh Mr. Michael
Anderson, Mr. David
Anderson, Janet
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Austin, Mr. Ian
Austin, John
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barker, Gregory
Barlow, Ms Celia
Baron, Mr. John
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Beith, rh Mr. Alan
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Bradshaw, Mr. Ben
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Brennan, Kevin
Brooke, Annette
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Des
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, rh Andy
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burt, Alistair
Byrne, Mr. Liam
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Chaytor, Mr. David
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Greg
Clark, Ms Katy
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Crausby, Mr. David
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire
Davey, Mr. Edward
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davies, Mr. Dai
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Devine, Mr. Jim
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Duddridge, James
Dunne, Mr. Philip
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Ennis, Jeff
Evennett, Mr. David
Farrelly, Paul
Farron, Tim
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gardiner, Barry
George, Andrew
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gidley, Sandra
Gilroy, Linda
Goodman, Helen
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Gummer, rh Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hancock, Mr. Mike
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr. Tom
Harvey, Nick
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, John
Heath, Mr. David
Hemming, John
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Hesford, Stephen
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Hood, Mr. Jim
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Horwood, Martin
Hosie, Stewart
Howard, rh Mr. Michael
Howarth, David
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hughes, Simon
Huhne, Chris
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lamb, Norman
Lammy, Mr. David
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Mr. Ivan
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Lidington, Mr. David
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
Loughton, Tim
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
Mackinlay, Andrew
Maclean, rh David
MacShane, rh Mr. Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Mr. Khalid
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Martlew, Mr. Eric
Maude, rh Mr. Francis
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McDonagh, Siobhain
McFall, rh John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
McNulty, rh Mr. Tony
Meacher, rh Mr. Michael
Meale, Mr. Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Mr. Alan
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Mr. Austin
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Moore, Mr. Michael
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Morley, rh Mr. Elliot
Mudie, Mr. George
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Mundell, David
Murphy, Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mr. Mike
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Olner, Mr. Bill
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Pickles, Mr. Eric
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Price, Adam
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Purnell, rh James
Randall, Mr. John
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, Mr. Alan
Reid, rh John
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, John
Rosindell, Andrew
Rowen, Paul
Roy, Mr. Frank
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Bob
Russell, Christine
Salter, Martin
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Seabeck, Alison
Sharma, Mr. Virendra
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, Geraldine
Smith, rh Jacqui
Smith, Sir Robert
Snelgrove, Anne
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Spink, Bob
Stewart, Ian
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stuart, Mr. Graham
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Swinson, Jo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tami, Mark
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, David
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Twigg, Derek
Ussher, Kitty
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Vaz, rh Keith
Walley, Joan
Walter, Mr. Robert
Waltho, Lynda
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mark
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr. David
Wishart, Pete
Wood, Mike
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Jeremy
Wyatt, Derek
Yeo, Mr. Tim
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. Bob Blizzard and
Mr. Dave Watts
NOES
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Christopher Chope and
Philip Davies
Question accordingly agreed to.
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