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The right-to-know form will itemise expenditure, and I hope that the Government will follow suit. As parliamentarians, we speak of transparency, openness and accountability from individuals, organisations and corporate Britain; it is only right and proper that we
should apply those same rules to ourselves. That is why there should be greater auditing of our allowances and why we should be subject to the levels of scrutiny that we expect for people outside.
When family members are employed, it is right and proper that, in the interests of openness, we should say who they are and give a broad indication of the salary band into which they fall.
On the subject of staff costs, let us clarify an issue that has been mentioned during the course of the debate. The general public believe that the words “expenses” and “allowances” refer to money that goes into our pockets and that it is money in addition to our salaries. It is therefore right that we should make it clear that up to £100,000 of that money goes towards our staff to help us to do our jobs properly. It would be absurd if somebody were to say to a headmaster that the salaries of his teachers were to be classed as his expenses, or if a manager or director were told that the salaries of all the people working under him were to be classed as his expenses, so it is absurd that the salaries of our staff should be classed as expenses. We need to clarify that in the mind’s eye of the public. [ Interruption . ] A lot of chuntering about directorships is going on from sedentary positions. May I remind Labour Members that there are a lot of directorships on their side of the House as well? Perhaps they might look at the entries of a lot of their former Ministers in the Register of Members’ Interests.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must continue by winding up the debate that has taken place.
Mr. Vara: The hon. Member for North Southwark and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes) made a typical contribution in which he was critical of the 21 Conservative Members who voted for the amendment that was carried on 3 July. However, had 28 of his Liberal Democrat colleagues, including his leader, bothered to turn up and vote, the amendment would not have been carried. Believe me, one does not have to be a rocket scientist to work out that 28 is a hell of lot more than 21.
The hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell) spoke with considerable thought and reason, and I compliment him on everything that he said. He is right that this matter needs to be resolved before the next general election, because the public expect it and it impacts on all of us. My hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack) spoke with typical eloquence and set out his position thoroughly. It is a position with which I disagree, but he certainly put it on the record.
I regret that the right hon. Member for Warley (Mr. Spellar) and the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) chose to make extraordinarily partisan speeches, to the point where the Deputy Speaker had to reprimand them and remind them of the wording of the motion. The hon. Member for North Durham said that we should look only at the rotten apples of recent years. Let me remind him that in recent years two Labour Prime Ministers have had the police knocking on their doors as regards money and financial irregularities. Let us remember— [ Interruption . ]
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The House must come to order.
Mr. Vara: I reiterate that this is a House issue that concerns all Members, and it must be treated as such.
Stephen Pound (Ealing, North) (Lab): Is it being whipped?
Mr. Vara: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman should ask his own Chief Whip about that. We will deal with our matters as we wish; the hon. Gentleman should deal with his own matters.
Time is pressing. All that I would say— [ Interruption . ]
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Let the hon. Gentleman continue.
Mr. Vara: This matter needs to be resolved, and I very much hope that positive action will be taken today to ensure that we move forward. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Atkinson) said, we cannot be ostrich-like about it. Unless it is dealt with, we will all be treated with derision by the public, and rightly so. Frankly, Government Back Benchers have done no credit to themselves or to this House.
3.49 pm
The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Helen Goodman): It is a pleasure to take part in the debate and to follow the hon. Member for North-West Cambridgeshire (Mr. Vara).
I am concerned about the old-fashioned view of Members that the motion perpetuates. The role of the Member of Parliament has changed since the 18th century, when it was a part-time exercise, which those who could afford to fund themselves undertook. David Lloyd George recognised that in 1911, when he referred to the demand from democracy. Voters should choose who represents them and no one should be excluded because they do not have the means to run two offices and two homes—one in the constituency and one at Westminster.
The second and equally important principle is that public money should be properly used for the purposes for which it was voted. We must demonstrate that that is the case to maintain public confidence. The proposals that my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House presented today do that. First, she proposes that the green book rules be rewritten, thus ending the John Lewis list, and that the body to do it—the Advisory Panel on Members’ Allowances—be augmented by two external, independent appointees. That has been discussed with the Chair of the Committee on Standards in Public Life.
Secondly, my right hon. and learned Friend proposes much stronger audit arrangements, namely a full financial audit by the highly respected and independent National Audit Office, covering all allowances. That will be a proper, risk-based audit.
Mrs. May: Does not the hon. Lady understand that the NAO already audits the House of Commons, including all allowances?
Helen Goodman: I understand that. The NAO currently tests and checks the controls to ensure that they are adequate and effective. The difference is that it will now also consider the rules and guidance on what is acceptable, and robust management controls and processes to ensure compliance.
Mrs. May: I raised that point earlier. If the NAO is to examine the rules and the guidance on the rules, the Government will have to change the legislation that covers the NAO. It does not have the power to consider policy.
Helen Goodman: The right hon. Lady is not right about that. If she considers the evidence, which the NAO submitted, in appendix 3 of the report, she will realise that we are following the precise recommendation of the Comptroller and Auditor General.
We also propose that the NAO should report to the Members Estimate Audit Committee, which has two independent members, shortly to be augmented to three. Those proposals have been discussed with the Comptroller and Auditor General.
Those measures, with the decisions that the House took on 3 July, will reduce to under 1 per cent. the amount of unvouched spending, and significantly strengthen the assurance that the public can have.
When the right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs. May) spoke at the beginning of the debate, she made several suggestions, which were perceived to be impractical. She also mentioned Members of the European Parliament. Eight years ago, Labour MEPs decided to have their finances audited, and they post on their individual websites the audit letters that they receive. I emphasise that Labour MEPs took that step to improve transparency eight years ago.
The Leader of the House responded by describing the work of a modern Member of Parliament. She explained why her reforms will fulfil the House’s current needs.
The hon. Member for North Southwark and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes) recapped on the debate of 3 July and made a strong case for improving transparency.
My hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell) welcomed my right hon. and learned Friend’s proposals. He was one of the MEC three and we are most grateful to him for all his work on the subject. He is right that the role of Parliament is central. That is why the Government made it clear in “The Governance of Britain” White Paper that renewing trust in our institutions is essential to our proposals for constitutional renewal.
The hon. Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack) made a considered speech based on his long experience and pointed to the need for appropriate support for all hon. Members.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Warley (Mr. Spellar) began by reminding us of the sneer in Alan Clark’s diaries about those who buy their own furniture. However, he forgot to add that the day began with Alan Clark explaining that that criticism was made by
“Pinkish toffs”
“suffered, for ten years, submission to their social inferior”.
Clearly that is not the snobbish world to which most hon. Members wish to return. My right hon. Friend also drew on his experience as chairman of the Advisory Panel on Members’ allowances. He commented on the
important fact that the nature of MPs’ work is changing and that if we want a House that is truly representative and diverse, we must recognise that in the structure of our allowances.
The right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (David Maclean) highlighted the need for a more systematic approach to reform. He is another member of the MEC, and we are grateful to him for the huge amount of effort that he has made. The proposals put forward in the Government amendment build on the work that the MEC did earlier in the year.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) spoke about the problems of malpractice and cases where expenditure of public money has been abused for party political advantage, and about the importance of taking a systematic approach. What he said is absolutely right. That is exactly why we want to extend the National Audit Office audit to cover the systems, to ensure that they, too, are robust and that Members can rely upon them and be assured that the records that they hold are accurate.
The hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Atkinson) suggested that some sort of deal had been done on the Government Benches on 3 July, so that Labour Members would be free to vote against the MEC if they voted with the Government on pay. In fact, he is wholly wrong about that. No such deal was done; there was a completely free vote.
My hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) described a catalogue of problems in the last two Parliaments and stressed the importance of financial audit.
The right hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Miss Widdecombe) said that she wanted to make a robust defence of the position in which hon. Members find themselves. She certainly succeeded. She also pointed to the fundamental weakness in the Opposition motion, in that it will reinstitute a two-tier membership of the House.
Rob Marris: Does my hon. Friend look forward to finding out after this afternoon’s vote how many of those who vote for the Opposition motion do not rent furnished accommodation as part of their ACA claim, and therefore hypocritically do not do what the motion says that Members should do?
Helen Goodman: I am sure that there are those who will be extremely alert to the issues that my hon. Friend raises and who will provide us with that information.
In conclusion, MPs play a vital role in our democracy. They represent their constituents, they legislate and they scrutinise the Executive. To do that they must have adequate resources and they must command the confidence, respect and trust of the public. I believe that the proposals put forward by my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House achieve both those aims, involving independent external members on the panel to review the green book, abolishing the John Lewis list and providing for a full financial audit of all allowances by the National Audit Office. I commend her amendment to the House.
Question put, That the original words stand part of the Question:—
The House divided: Ayes 238, Noes 295.
AYES
Afriyie, Adam
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Alexander, Danny
Amess, Mr. David
Ancram, rh Mr. Michael
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Baron, Mr. John
Barrett, John
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Binley, Mr. Brian
Bone, Mr. Peter
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Bottomley, Peter
Brake, Tom
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Browning, Angela
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burrowes, Mr. David
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Burt, Lorely
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Cameron, rh Mr. David
Campbell, Mr. Gregory
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Clappison, Mr. James
Clark, Greg
Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth
Clegg, rh Mr. Nick
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Cox, Mr. Geoffrey
Crabb, Mr. Stephen
Curry, rh Mr. David
Davey, Mr. Edward
Davies, Mr. Dai
Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth)
Davies, Philip
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dodds, Mr. Nigel
Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M.
Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain
Dunne, Mr. Philip
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Evans, Mr. Nigel
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Mr. Michael
Farron, Tim
Field, rh Mr. Frank
Field, Mr. Mark
Foster, Mr. Don
Fox, Dr. Liam
Francois, Mr. Mark
Fraser, Christopher
Gale, Mr. Roger
Galloway, Mr. George
Garnier, Mr. Edward
Gauke, Mr. David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gidley, Sandra
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gove, Michael
Gray, Mr. James
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Greenway, Mr. John
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Gummer, rh Mr. John
Hague, rh Mr. William
Hammond, Mr. Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Mr. Mike
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harper, Mr. Mark
Harris, Dr. Evan
Hayes, Mr. John
Heald, Mr. Oliver
Heath, Mr. David
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hemming, John
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, Nick
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hoey, Kate
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holloway, Mr. Adam
Holmes, Paul
Horwood, Martin
Hosie, Stewart
Howard, rh Mr. Michael
Howarth, David
Howarth, Mr. Gerald
Howell, John
Hughes, Simon
Huhne, Chris
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hunter, Mark
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Jenkin, Mr. Bernard
Jones, Mr. David
Kawczynski, Daniel
Key, Robert
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Kramer, Susan
Laing, Mrs. Eleanor
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lamb, Norman
Lancaster, Mr. Mark
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Laws, Mr. David
Leech, Mr. John
Leigh, Mr. Edward
Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
Mackinlay, Andrew
Maclean, rh David
Main, Anne
Malins, Mr. Humfrey
Maples, Mr. John
Mates, rh Mr. Michael
Maude, rh Mr. Francis
May, rh Mrs. Theresa
McCrea, Dr. William
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Mercer, Patrick
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Moore, Mr. Michael
Mulholland, Greg
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Oaten, Mr. Mark
Osborne, Mr. George
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, Mr. James
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Pickles, Mr. Eric
Price, Adam
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, Dr. John
Randall, Mr. John
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Reid, Mr. Alan
Rennie, Willie
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Robinson, rh Mr. Peter
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, Mr. David
Russell, Bob
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Scott, Mr. Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, David
Simpson, Mr. Keith
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Spelman, Mrs. Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob
Spring, Mr. Richard
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Swire, Mr. Hugo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Mr. Ian
Taylor, Matthew
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr. Edward
Tredinnick, David
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Viggers, Sir Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve
Whittingdale, Mr. John
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, Mr. David
Williams, Mark
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willis, Mr. Phil
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Wilson, Sammy
Wishart, Pete
Wright, Jeremy
Young, rh Sir George
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. David Evennett and
James Duddridge
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Mr. David
Anderson, Janet
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Austin, John
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Blunkett, rh Mr. David
Bradshaw, Mr. Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, rh Mr. Gordon
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Browne, rh Des
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burnham, rh Andy
Byers, rh Mr. Stephen
Byrne, Mr. Liam
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Chaytor, Mr. David
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Darling, rh Mr. Alistair
David, Mr. Wayne
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Devine, Mr. Jim
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Ennis, Jeff
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Godsiff, Mr. Roger
Goggins, Paul
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, John
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hughes, rh Beverley
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Ingram, rh Mr. Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Kelly, rh Ruth
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Jane
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Mr. Ivan
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
Mackinlay, Andrew
MacShane, rh Mr. Denis
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McCartney, rh Mr. Ian
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair
McFadden, Mr. Pat
McFall, rh John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, Mrs. Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McNulty, rh Mr. Tony
Meacher, rh Mr. Michael
Meale, Mr. Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Mr. Alan
Miliband, rh David
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Moffat, Anne
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Moran, Margaret
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Morley, rh Mr. Elliot
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, Mr. George
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mr. Mike
Olner, Mr. Bill
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purnell, rh James
Rammell, Bill
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Christine
Ryan, rh Joan
Salter, Martin
Sharma, Mr. Virendra
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Singh, Mr. Marsha
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andy
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, rh Jacqui
Smith, John
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Spink, Bob
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Tami, Mark
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, David
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Twigg, Derek
Ussher, Kitty
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Watson, Mr. Tom
Watts, Mr. Dave
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Wills, Mr. Michael
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wood, Mike
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Noes:
Alison Seabeck and
Mr. Sadiq Khan
Question accordingly negatived.
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