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“will assess the options available to us.”—[ Official Report, 12 June 2008; Vol. 477, c. 540.]
Mr. Bone: I understand entirely my hon. Friend’s point that we do not have up-to-date information, but we do have some information provided by the Government on the number of prosecutions under the Pedlars Act 1871. One would think that, if there were a problem, those prosecutions would be increasing. In fact, the high point was in 2004, when there were 107 prosecutions. The number fell in 2005 and fell again in 2006, to 74. That does not indicate that there is a growing problem.
Mr. Chope: My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to those figures. Indeed, earlier today I was engaged in an interview for the regional BBC news, and the hon. Member for Reading, West (Martin Salter) was also present. He will bear witness to the fact that he asked the interviewer—not on camera—about the outcome of the investigation that the camera people had done down in Bournemouth, where they had gone to film pedlars in action. The interviewer had to admit that they could not find any pedlars, so they did not have anything to film. That may indicate that there is a certain exaggeration of the problem.
Mr. Ellwood: I am pleased that my hon. Friend finds the debate humorous. The problem is costing Bournemouth borough council tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds to get the Bill through. It is a serious piece of legislation, and if the problem were trivial or there were no problem, the council would not be trying to push it through. Nor would places such as Winchester, Southampton, Portsmouth and London have bothered to secure such legislation already. I think that he supports the idea that there should be national legislation to empower local councils, and I do not understand why he is so adamant about hindering Bournemouth’s ability to do something about a local matter in the interim.
Mr. Chope: I tried to make my case clear to my hon. Friend in the interventions during the previous debate, but I shall make my Bournemouth-specific points when we discuss the Bournemouth Borough Council Bill in particular. At the moment, I wish to deal with the more general issues that relate to all six Bills.
When we talked in the previous debate about seeing whether we needed national legislation, the Minister kindly said that he would organise that research. He was working with the grain of the mood of the House. My hon. Friend the Member for Cotswold (Mr. Clifton-Brown) argued from the Opposition Front Bench in favour of national legislation to deal with the problem. He said that if we dealt with it one council at a time,
“we could be merely transporting the problem to a neighbouring council.”
The hon. Member for Manchester, Central (Tony Lloyd), who spoke to support the Manchester City Council Bill, said:
“The most sensible way forward is to have a national framework.”—[ Official Report, 12 June 2008; Vol. 477, c. 524.]
That was supported from the Liberal Democrat Front Bench by the hon. Member for Brent, East (Sarah Teather), as well as by my hon. Friends the Members for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) and for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier). I believe that the hon. Member for Bolton, South-East, whom I am pleased to see in his place, also supports the case for a national framework. So, in setting up this research project and asking for the work to be done by Durham university, the Minister was responding to a strong request.
Tony Lloyd (Manchester, Central) (Lab) rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.
Question put, That the Question be now put:—
The House divided: Ayes 317, Noes 24.
AYES
Ainger, Nick
Anderson, Janet
Atkins, Charlotte
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Baldry, Tony
Balls, rh Ed
Barker, Gregory
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Benton, Mr. Joe
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Bercow, John
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Brake, Tom
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brennan, Kevin
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burrowes, Mr. David
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Butterfill, Sir John
Byers, rh Mr. Stephen
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, Mr. Gregory
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Challen, Colin
Chaytor, Mr. David
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Cook, Frank
Cooper, Rosie
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Tony
Davey, Mr. Edward
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davis, rh David
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Dodds, Mr. Nigel
Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M.
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Duddridge, James
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Engel, Natascha
Ennis, Jeff
Evennett, Mr. David
Fabricant, Michael
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, rh Mr. Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Don
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Fraser, Christopher
Gapes, Mike
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, Paul
Goodman, Helen
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Greening, Justine
Greenway, Mr. John
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Grogan, Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hancock, Mr. Mike
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harris, Dr. Evan
Harvey, Nick
Hayes, Mr. John
Healey, John
Heath, Mr. David
Hemming, John
Henderson, Mr. Doug
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Herbert, Nick
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Holmes, Paul
Hood, Mr. Jim
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hopkins, Kelvin
Horam, Mr. John
Howarth, David
Howell, John
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley
Huhne, Chris
Hunter, Mark
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Keetch, Mr. Paul
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles
Kidney, Mr. David
Knight, Jim
Kramer, Susan
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lamb, Norman
Lammy, Mr. David
Laws, Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Levitt, Tom
Lloyd, Tony
Love, Mr. Andrew
Luff, Peter
Mackinlay, Andrew
Mactaggart, Fiona
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert
Martlew, Mr. Eric
Mates, rh Mr. Michael
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McDonagh, Siobhain
McFadden, Mr. Pat
McFall, rh John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
Meale, Mr. Alan
Michael, rh Alun
Miller, Andrew
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Mitchell, Mr. Austin
Moffat, Anne
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moran, Margaret
Morgan, Julie
Morley, rh Mr. Elliot
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, Mr. George
Mulholland, Greg
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Mr. Jim
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Olner, Mr. Bill
Öpik, Lembit
Ottaway, Richard
Penrose, John
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Randall, Mr. John
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Rennie, Willie
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, John
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Robinson, rh Mr. Peter
Rosindell, Andrew
Rowen, Paul
Ryan, rh Joan
Salter, Martin
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Scott, Mr. Lee
Seabeck, Alison
Sharma, Mr. Virendra
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andy
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, rh Jacqui
Smith, Sir Robert
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Spink, Bob
Stanley, rh Sir John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Steen, Mr. Anthony
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stunell, Andrew
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Swinson, Jo
Tami, Mark
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, David
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thurso, John
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Mr. Paul
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Ussher, Kitty
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Viggers, Sir Peter
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Watkinson, Angela
Watts, Mr. Dave
Webb, Steve
Wicks, Malcolm
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Willetts, Mr. David
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Williams, Mark
Williams, Stephen
Willis, Mr. Phil
Willott, Jenny
Wills, Mr. Michael
Wilson, Phil
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Jeremy
Wright, Dr. Tony
Young, rh Sir George
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Ayes:
Ms Diana R. Johnson and
Ms Dawn Butler
NOES
Amess, Mr. David
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Binley, Mr. Brian
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth)
Davies, Philip
Evans, Mr. Nigel
Gray, Mr. James
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harper, Mr. Mark
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Christopher Chope and
Mr. Peter Bone
Question accordingly agreed to.
Question accordingly put, That the Bill be now read a Second time:—
The House divided: Ayes 307, Noes 11.
AYES
Afriyie, Adam
Ainger, Nick
Alexander, Danny
Atkins, Charlotte
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Baldry, Tony
Balls, rh Ed
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Benton, Mr. Joe
Bercow, John
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Brake, Tom
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brennan, Kevin
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Brown, Lyn
Brown, Mr. Russell
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burrowes, Mr. David
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Burt, Alistair
Butterfill, Sir John
Byers, rh Mr. Stephen
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, Mr. Gregory
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Challen, Colin
Chaytor, Mr. David
Clark, Greg
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank
Cooper, Rosie
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Tony
Davey, Mr. Edward
David, Mr. Wayne
Davies, Mr. Dai
Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth)
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Dodds, Mr. Nigel
Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M.
Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Duddridge, James
Eagle, Angela
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Engel, Natascha
Ennis, Jeff
Evennett, Mr. David
Fabricant, Michael
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, rh Mr. Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Foster, Mr. Don
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Fraser, Christopher
Gapes, Mike
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, Paul
Goodman, Helen
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Greening, Justine
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hancock, Mr. Mike
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harris, Dr. Evan
Harvey, Nick
Hayes, Mr. John
Healey, John
Heath, Mr. David
Hemming, John
Henderson, Mr. Doug
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Heppell, Mr. John
Hesford, Stephen
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Holmes, Paul
Hood, Mr. Jim
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, David
Howell, John
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley
Huhne, Chris
Hunter, Mark
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Keetch, Mr. Paul
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles
Khan, Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kramer, Susan
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lamb, Norman
Lammy, Mr. David
Laws, Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lepper, David
Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Lloyd, Tony
Love, Mr. Andrew
Luff, Peter
Mackinlay, Andrew
Mactaggart, Fiona
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert
Martlew, Mr. Eric
Mates, rh Mr. Michael
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McDonagh, Siobhain
McFall, rh John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Meale, Mr. Alan
Miller, Andrew
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Mitchell, Mr. Austin
Moffat, Anne
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moran, Margaret
Morley, rh Mr. Elliot
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, Mr. George
Mulholland, Greg
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Olner, Mr. Bill
Öpik, Lembit
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Penrose, John
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Pritchard, Mark
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Randall, Mr. John
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Rennie, Willie
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, John
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Robinson, rh Mr. Peter
Rosindell, Andrew
Rowen, Paul
Russell, Bob
Ryan, rh Joan
Salter, Martin
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Scott, Mr. Lee
Seabeck, Alison
Selous, Andrew
Sharma, Mr. Virendra
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andy
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, rh Jacqui
Smith, Sir Robert
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Spink, Bob
Stanley, rh Sir John
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stunell, Andrew
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Swinson, Jo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tami, Mark
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, David
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thurso, John
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Mr. Paul
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Viggers, Sir Peter
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Watkinson, Angela
Watts, Mr. Dave
Webb, Steve
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willis, Mr. Phil
Willott, Jenny
Wills, Mr. Michael
Wilson, Phil
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Jeremy
Wright, Dr. Tony
Wyatt, Derek
Young, rh Sir George
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Ayes:
Ms Diana R. Johnson and
Ms Dawn Butler
NOES
Davies, Philip
Evans, Mr. Nigel
Gray, Mr. James
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harper, Mr. Mark
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Christopher Chope and
Mr. Peter Bone
Question accordingly agreed to.
Bill read a Second t ime and committed.
Bournemouth Borough Council Bill [ Lords] (By Order)
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
5.8 pm
Mr. Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth, East) (Con): I congratulate Members from the Manchester area on their success. I hope it gives an indication of the mood of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I seek your advice about whether there is some way to curtail the other debates so that we can vote on the proceedings and ensure that the Bill makes it through to Committee where we can scrutinise it further.
We had an open and frank debate in June, and further debate today, on the Manchester City Council Bill, so there is not much more to say. Like the other areas that are seeking legislative change, we have a dilemma in Bournemouth relating to the clash between the Pedlars Act 1871 and the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1982. The problem is that, although a pedlar can carry on his work for £12.50 a year, a street trader has to pay £25 a day. The problem will not be resolved by any Government in the near future. I seek the House’s support for the Bournemouth Borough Council Bill—
Mr. Ellwood: I will not give way, at least not until I have finished my point. I hope that the House will support the Bill until all-encompassing legislation is introduced to empower any council in the country to follow the path that Bournemouth borough council and Manchester city council are taking.
Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con) rose—
Mr. Ellwood: I will give way once.
Mr. Bone: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his generosity, but is he not making a case for national legislation? He has not said why Bournemouth needs a different Bill from Manchester. Should we not have national legislation, rather than piecemeal Bills, unless there are particular issues that apply to Bournemouth?
Mr. Ellwood: I urge my hon. Friend to read the Hansard of the debate in June 2008. He will then understand why the areas concerned require such legislation. There is no national legislation on the issue, and I agree that there must be, but it will not be forthcoming in the next few months, or possibly years. Meanwhile, it is costing Bournemouth and the other areas concerned huge sums of money to try to tackle the issue.
Sir John Butterfill (Bournemouth, West) (Con) rose—
Mr. Ellwood: I give way to my hon. Friend and neighbour.
Sir John Butterfill: My hon. Friend is aware, of course, that when the Bournemouth Borough Council Bill was debated in the House of Lords, Lord Bach, speaking for the Government, said that he was not prepared to bring in national legislation. He said:
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