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5 Nov 2008 : Column 99WHcontinued
The third solution, and this falls outside the Ministers remit, is to channel more inactive British citizens into horticulture. The Government have recognised this problem with the 2007 Freud report, Reducing dependency, increasing opportunity: options for the future of welfare to work. I absolutely support the central tenets of that report, which include: implementing well-designed unemployment benefit systems and active labour market policies; making non-employment benefits more work-orientated, and adjusting taxes and other transfer payments to make work pay.
The Spanish example of a fixed, discontinuous contract, which allows a worker to have a contract with a company but only to be paid when work is available, is also worth examining. Such a system would do much to encourage the unemployed, those claiming jobseekers allowance and students to work in horticulture, and it would be an important element of any future solution to the problems that horticulture faces.
Finally, if I am being honest there are a number of solutions that horticulture itself needs to adopt. It needs to ensure that both horticulture in particular and agriculture more generally are attractive career options for younger people. Initiatives such as the Grow web portal, which is due for launch in November 2008, and the introduction of a land-based agriculture diploma are all hugely positive developments. However, the industry needs to do more, alongside the changes that I have requested of the Government, to alter perceptions of horticulture.
Mr. Moss: I am listening extremely carefully to the proposals for solving this problem that my hon. Friend is putting forward. As I understand it, an EU directive is behind this change to SAWS; it says that we cannot bring in workers from outside the EU if there are EU workers available to do the work. However, this is not just a problem for the UK. As I understand it, France, Spain, Germany and Italy all have similar problems. They seem to be getting round them by allowing quotas of non-EU people to come into their country to do this very important agricultural work. Is that idea worth consideration?
Hugh Robertson: My hon. Friend is absolutely right; such a quota would be a crucial plank of any new post-2010 agreement that would be put in place as a replacement for SAWS. It is very difficult to get an exact handle on all of these issues, but I am told that the problem is not so bad in countries such as Spain, because they are naturally a more attractive destination to students than the UK sometimes is, because of the greater travel costs to the UK and the climate here.
The Minister for Borders and Immigration (Mr. Phil Woolas): Spain certainly has a more attractive climate.
Hugh Robertson: Absolutely. [Laughter.]
In conclusion, I hope that we can all agree that we should support horticulture in general and fruit farming in particular. The availability of labour is a key componentin some ways, it is the key componentin the industrys success and future viability. Horticulture has been fantastically well served by SAWS under Governments of all colours for many years, but the scheme in its current form is due to end in 2010. All the early evidence suggests that labour from the A8 countries will not cover that shortfall.
What I need to impress on the Minister today is that horticulture desperately needs some breathing time. That could be achieved by extending the life of SAWS, as it is currently constituted, and increasing the number of people allowed into the country under the scheme. That would buy the time necessary to agree a new replacement scheme, containing precisely the elements suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Cambridgeshire, and whatever changes are necessary to existing regulations here in the UK to encourage more British citizens into horticulture.
The point of this debateapart from welcoming the new Minister to his post, of coursewas, first, to alert the Minister to the problem and, secondly, to highlight in general terms, and I am the first to admit that I am talking only in general terms, a number of possible solutions that he can, hopefully, work through with the NFU, SAWS operators and the wider industry. The clock is ticking to 2010, but there is still time to find a solution.
The Minister for Borders and Immigration (Mr. Phil Woolas): It is again a pleasure, Mr. Cook, to serve under you today.
I want to start by thanking the hon. Member for Faversham and Mid-Kent (Hugh Robertson) for his kind words. He said that my post was one of the trickiest jobs in Government and I agree. [Laughter.]
I also want to say that the hon. Gentlemans contribution has highlighted exactly what the value of these short debates is. He said that his objective was to alert the Government to this problem and to put forward some solutions. I congratulate him, because he has done both those things. Having the detailed knowledge of a Member of Parliament who has a constituency involved in this sector is a godsend to a new Minister, alongside, of course, the information that the civil service professionally brings to my attention.
So I sincerely thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments today and I would like to suggest that the way forward, if he is amenable, is that we have a meeting, either with or without the NFU, which I want to meet in any event to discuss what the future of SAWS should be, because I think that the public would not understand what was happening if they saw that fruit and crops were not being picked and they would want the Government to provide a solution, within the remit of our wider policy.
First, I would just like to set out where we are on SAWS; I cannot answer all of the hon. Gentlemans questions today, as I will explain. I have some personal knowledge of seasonal agricultural working in my part of the world, not in fruit picking but in haymaking, where the local childrenusually boys, but sometimes boys and girlswould be hired by the farmers to get their hay in. Our local rural economy was absolutely dependent on that practice. I am sure that others, later in life, have gone to perhaps more attractive climates to pick fruit; I think that it was grapes in the case of the hon. Gentleman. So, as I say, I have some personal understanding of this sector, but of course nothing like his experience. I understand that SAWSthe seasonal
agricultural workers schemewas established in the 1940s as both an agricultural scheme and a youth-orientated scheme, to promote cultural exchange as well as to provide farmers with seasonal labour.
As the hon. Gentleman will know, until recently SAWS participants were required to be full-time students and they were mainly drawn from eastern European countries and states from the former Soviet Union. The big change in January 2004 saw the scheme being administered by nine operators, who work under contract with what is now the UK Border Agency, to recruit participants and match them to farm placements. The scheme seems to be a labour exchange, really, which does its job.
The scheme works on a strict quota basis with participating farmers and growers allowed to employ a fixed number of overseas workers though the scheme each year. I think that there is some confusion among lay people, who do not have the hon. Gentlemans knowledge of the scheme, that the quota is a specific mix and match for the operators. Of course, there are people who can come in to this country outside of the scheme. So, there is some confusion. I hate to say that the press cannot cope with complicated issues. However, let me just put that comment about the scheme on the record.
The changes to the scheme started with the accession of the eight eastern European countries, plus Malta and Cyprus, to the EU in 2004. That led to the 2005 SAWS quota being reduced from 25,000the figure that the hon. Gentleman wants to see reinstatedto 16,250, in order to reflect the new pool of labour that was available because of the A8 countries. Since 2007, of course, that figure has just covered Romanian and Bulgarian nationals, which the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Moss) referred to.
While I am on this subject, I would just like to respond to the point that the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire made about the EU directive in this area. I am advised that the relevant provision is article 14 of the accession treaty, which requires the UK to give preference to accession workers over non-EU workers; to give preference is the appropriate phrase, I am advised.
Mr. Moss: Like my hon. Friend I welcome the Minister to this rather tricky post that he has inherited. I thank him for his reply, but the issue is not that we have plenty of Polish, Latvian and Lithuanian workers. There are more in my constituency, probably, than anywhere in the countryworking mainly in factories. We cannot get the same workers who are building a life for themselves in our communities to work on the land, particularly where the work is not just picking fruit but also vegetable crops such as asparagus and leeks, and others that go almost straight from the farm to the table, through the supermarkets. They are not interested in that seasonal work, particularly if more permanent employment is available. There is a shortfall, which is what my hon. Friend is trying to deal with.
The hon. Gentleman is right. The world is getting more urbanised, if I may use that phrase. Highly intensive labour requirements in the rural agricultural sector mean that we do not have the pool of labour that we had in previous years and generations, and that is why it is incumbent on the Government to answer the
question that is being raised, and square the circle. I hope that the hon. Gentleman accepts that I understand that point.
To carry on with my explanation of the current situation, the changes that I have referred tothe A8 changes and the A2 changes, referring to Bulgaria and Romaniawere made to reflect the enlarged EU labour pool and the fact that many of the countries from which seasonal migrant labour has traditionally been sourced have now joined the EU. As has been acknowledged, employers in the horticultural sector have benefited from the decision to open the labour market to the A8 countries. Not every EU country did that. There are restrictions, for seven years, I think, relating to European Union entry, that countries can adopt. However, now we are able freely to recruit from the A8 countries, with the consequence that those nationals no longer need to be included in the SAWS quota. That is exposing the problem that the hon. Member for Faversham and Mid-Kent brought to our attention.
As of 1 January 2007, to complicate matters further, Romania and Bulgaria acceded to the EU, allowing their nationals to move and reside freely in any member state. Romanian and Bulgarian nationals are subject to restricted access to the UK labour market while we continue to monitor the impact that the expanded EU is having.
In light of our obligations under European Union law, following a transitional period of one year, from 1 January 2008, the SAWS was restricted to nationals of Romania and Bulgaria. In addition, the requirement to be in full-time education was lifted, to open up the pool of available labour. That was of course a break with a tradition going back to the 1940s. I have referred to the principle of Community preference, which means that we cannot place restrictions on European citizens with free rights of movement to work, while at the same time continuing to admit workers of other nationalities who are subject to immigration control to the UK to do the same work. Nor would it be sensible for us to do so.
What are we going to do? That is where the hon. Member for Faversham and Mid-Kent has put forward some sensible points. I concur with him on his point about what he described as inactive British citizens. The welfare-to-work strategies must identify the relevant shortages. I agree with the hon. Gentlemans positive comments about the attraction of the sector to people. Work is being done on that, and more is needed. The hon. Gentleman raised two specific questions: the quota and the issue of six months to nine months for length of stay. We need to include those in our deliberations.
Wider immigration policy is of course relevant. The hon. Members for North-East Cambridgeshire and for Faversham and Mid-Kent have made points about differences in the matter of seasonal temporary workers. Ensuring that we can count people in and out is of course a central and powerful part, with cross-party support, of our reforms to the immigration system to give the public confidence and inform the authorities. I hope to be able to report to Parliament significant success in that area. Of course, however, I have already learned, if I did not know before, that there are many sectors and examples in which special cases are made. One must consider the overall situation. That is why we have the expert advice of the migration advisory committee, which is ably chaired by Professor Metcalf of the London School of Economics.
The committee exists to provide independent, transparent and evidence-based advice to the Government on where labour market shortages exist, and where they can be filled by migration. I am advised that the NFU has submitted its evidence to the committee, and that is important. The MAC has published its recommended shortage occupation lists for the UK and, within that, for Scotland, for use in tier 2 of the points-based system. That was published on 9 September. I recognise that the point that the hon. Member for Faversham and Mid-Kent is making was not included in that, so I am glad to say that we have now asked the migration advisory committee to turn its attention to the restrictions on Bulgarian and Romanian workers access to the labour market, and the question of what impact the possible relaxation of the restrictions could have on the labour market. I am told that I am required to notify the European Commission about the issue by the end of the year. We shall consider the MACs recommendations across Government in that light. Of course, it is at that point, to avoid what the hon. Gentleman described, I think, as a potential disaster, that we need to take decisions and adopt policies and strategies to anticipate future problems.
The hon. Gentleman began his remarks by saying that they would not be a standard Westminster Hall whinge. I have never taken any Westminster Hall debate as a standard whinge, but he is raising a matter that is very important to the sector, and to his constituents and many other hon. Members constituencies. Changes and reforms are being made in immigration policy, based around the points-based system and the need to provide training, skilling and programmes to allow British citizens to fill skill shortages; nevertheless those policies need to recognise, as they do, that when shortages arise we can accommodate them where necessary through migration. That is why the advisory committee is so important and, if I may say so, why the constituency experience of Members of Parliament is important.
Hugh Robertson: I sense that the Minister is coming to the end of his remarks, and just before he does I want to thank him, for myself and my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Cambridgeshire, for his constructive and open-minded approach. We should very much like to take him up on his offer of a meeting. It sounds as if that would be most appropriate in the early part of next year, by which stage the report will have gone to the EU. I thank him once again for his constructive and helpful approach to the debate.
Mr. Woolas: That is very gracious of the hon. Gentleman. I do not, of course, know his part of the world as well as he does, but I worked there, and as a northerner discovering Kent I was overwhelmed by what a beautiful area it is. The industrial sector to which he has referred is hugely important to us. The issue that he has raised has wide implications, such as the debate about food miles and carbon footprints, which I engaged with in my previous job, with the help of my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith); we cannot square those circles without a vibrant, prosperous British agriculture sector. That means that we must have labour. There is no getting away from that. Technology can of course make changes, but I have yet to see a machine that can pick strawberries as well as a group of students.
Jeff Ennis (Barnsley, East and Mexborough) (Lab): I am delighted to lead this important debate, which I have been trying to secure for about six months. It could not be on a more appropriate day, following Americas election of its 44th President, who will be the first African American to become the President of that country. Senator Obama has come from very humble beginnings, and that is what this debate is all about. I played a small part in the presidential election campaign, because I was over in St. Louis, Missouri, for super Tuesday. I was on the phone banks, canvassing for Senator Obama against Senator Clinton.
Frank Cook (in the Chair): Order. Viewing the hon. Member from the position that I hold at the moment, I find it difficult to understand how his part could have been a small one.
Jeff Ennis: I shall be very humble, and I shall not agree with you, Mr. Cook.
Senator Obama ended up winning Missouri by 50.1 per cent. to Senator Hillary Clintons 49.9 per cent., and I feel privileged to have played a small part in those presidential elections.
I congratulate the Government on the progress on the widening participation agenda since we came into power. I fully support their target of having a 50 per cent. participation rate in higher education, which I hope will be achieved in the next four or five years. The Aimhigher scheme has been successful in getting into the less well-known secondary schools throughout the country and giving their students a flavour of what life at university is like. It has also linked some of our prestigious universities with schools and further education colleges across the length and breadth of England.
I am sorry to admit that the legacy of the mining and engineering industries in areas such as the local education authorities that I representBarnsley and Doncastermeans that we have no great history of children going to university. That is why we have some of the lowest staying-on rates in the country. There is no doubt that the education maintenance allowance that the Government are providing is making a big difference in my constituency in encouraging students to stay on.
In some of the more deprived communities that I represent, most of which are former mining villages, it is proving difficult to persuade parents to support their children in going to university. The Government always rightly make the case that parents need to be more involved in their childrens education. However, in some communities, it is not just a question of involving the parents more; it is also about raising the profile of education in communities in general. It is going to take a long timeperhaps a generationto achieve that change of attitude in the communities that I am referring to.
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