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The House divided: Ayes 284, Noes 220.
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Mr. David
Anderson, Janet
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Austin, John
Baird, Vera
Balls, rh Ed
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Bradshaw, Mr. Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Des
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, rh Andy
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byrne, rh Mr. Liam
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Chapman, Ben
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Devine, Mr. Jim
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Engel, Natascha
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Mr. Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, Paul
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hamilton, Mr. Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr. Tom
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, rh John
Henderson, Mr. Doug
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hood, Mr. Jim
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Hutton, rh Mr. John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Ingram, rh Mr. Adam
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Kelly, rh Ruth
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Jane
Khan, Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, rh Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, rh Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lloyd, Tony
Love, Mr. Andrew
Mackinlay, Andrew
Mactaggart, Fiona
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McCartney, rh Mr. Ian
McFadden, rh Mr. Pat
McFall, rh John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
Meacher, rh Mr. Michael
Meale, Mr. Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Mr. Alan
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Mr. Austin
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Moran, Margaret
Morgan, Julie
Morley, rh Mr. Elliot
Mudie, Mr. George
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mr. Mike
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Olner, Mr. Bill
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Prescott, rh Mr. John
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Purnell, rh James
Rammell, Bill
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, rh John
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Roy, Mr. Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Christine
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad
Seabeck, Alison
Sharma, Mr. Virendra
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Singh, Mr. Marsha
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andy
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, Geraldine
Smith, rh Jacqui
Smith, John
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, Ian
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, David
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Todd, Mr. Mark
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Mr. Paul
Turner, Mr. Neil
Twigg, Derek
Ussher, Kitty
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Watson, Mr. Tom
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Wills, rh Mr. Michael
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wood, Mike
Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Dr. Tony
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Ayes:
Ian Lucas and
Mr. Dave Watts
NOES
Afriyie, Adam
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Amess, Mr. David
Ancram, rh Mr. Michael
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Bacon, Mr. Richard
Baldry, Tony
Baron, Mr. John
Barrett, John
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Beresford, Sir Paul
Binley, Mr. Brian
Bone, Mr. Peter
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brake, Tom
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Browning, Angela
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burrowes, Mr. David
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Burt, Alistair
Butterfill, Sir John
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clark, Greg
Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth
Clegg, rh Mr. Nick
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Crabb, Mr. Stephen
Curry, rh Mr. David
Davies, Mr. Dai
Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth)
Davies, Philip
Davis, rh David
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dodds, Mr. Nigel
Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M.
Dorries, Mrs. Nadine
Duddridge, James
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain
Dunne, Mr. Philip
Durkan, Mark
Evans, Mr. Nigel
Evennett, Mr. David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Mr. Michael
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mr. Mark
Fisher, Mark
Foster, Mr. Don
Fox, Dr. Liam
Francois, Mr. Mark
Fraser, Christopher
Garnier, Mr. Edward
Gauke, Mr. David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gove, Michael
Gray, Mr. James
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Greenway, Mr. John
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Gummer, rh Mr. John
Hague, rh Mr. William
Hammond, Mr. Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harper, Mr. Mark
Harris, Dr. Evan
Harvey, Nick
Heald, Mr. Oliver
Heath, Mr. David
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hemming, John
Herbert, Nick
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holloway, Mr. Adam
Holmes, Paul
Horam, Mr. John
Horwood, Martin
Hosie, Stewart
Howard, rh Mr. Michael
Howarth, David
Howarth, Mr. Gerald
Howell, John
Hughes, Simon
Huhne, Chris
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Jenkin, Mr. Bernard
Jones, Mr. David
Kawczynski, Daniel
Key, Robert
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Kramer, Susan
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lamb, Norman
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Laws, Mr. David
Leigh, Mr. Edward
Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
MacNeil, Mr. Angus
Main, Anne
Malins, Mr. Humfrey
Maples, Mr. John
Mason, John
Mates, rh Mr. Michael
Maude, rh Mr. Francis
May, rh Mrs. Theresa
McCrea, Dr. William
McDonnell, John
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Mercer, Patrick
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Moore, Mr. Michael
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mulholland, Greg
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Oaten, Mr. Mark
Öpik, Lembit
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, Mr. James
Paisley, rh Rev. Ian
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Pickles, Mr. Eric
Price, Adam
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pugh, Dr. John
Randall, Mr. John
Reid, Mr. Alan
Rennie, Willie
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Robinson, Mrs. Iris
Robinson, rh Mr. Peter
Rowen, Paul
Ruffley, Mr. David
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Scott, Mr. Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Alan
Simpson, David
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spring, Mr. Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Swire, Mr. Hugo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Mr. Ian
Taylor, Matthew
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr. Edward
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Watkinson, Angela
Weir, Mr. Mike
Whittingdale, Mr. John
Wiggin, Bill
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mark
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willis, Mr. Phil
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Wilson, Sammy
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Wishart, Pete
Wright, Jeremy
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Crispin Blunt and
Mr. Richard Benyon
Question accordingly agreed to.
Lords amendment No. 133 disagreed to.
Mr. Coaker: I beg to move that this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): With this it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendment No. 15 and the Government motion to disagree thereto, the Government motion to transfer clause 33, Government amendments (a) and (b) in lieu of Lords amendment No. 15, Lords amendments Nos. 4 to 14, and Lords amendment No. 115 and Government consequential amendment (a) thereto.
4.30 pm
Mr. Coaker: I am sure that several hon. Members will wish to speak on this group of amendments, and I do not want to spend a great deal of time going through a whole series of debating points that have been well rehearsed. Suffice it to say that we disagree with Lords amendment No. 3.
As my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said in her statement to the House on 13 October, the provisions in the Bill for 42 days’ detention were always, in our view,
“about protecting the British people...from the serious threat that we face from terrorism.”—[ Official Report, 13 October 2008; Vol. 480, c. 620.]
The Government’s approach has always been to try to strike the right balance between protecting national security and safeguarding the liberty of the individual. We believe that the proposals that we put forward in the Bill are consistent with our human rights obligations. We know that when it comes to national security, our primary duty is to protect the public. Therefore, following the decision of the other place to remove from the Bill the protections that we believed should be in place to allow for the detention of terrorist suspects beyond 28 days in case of need, which we accepted, we prepared a new Bill to enable the police and prosecutors to do their work should the worst happen—should a terrorist plot overtake us and threaten our current investigatory capabilities.
Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): Two of my constituents have been detained, allegedly on terrorist matters. I believe them to be innocent, but I will not name them for legal reasons. Would my constituents be entitled to feel reassured by what the Minister is saying, in terms of their civil liberties, or would they be right to be concerned, like me, that the changes that the Government are trying to make at this stage will make it more likely that people like them could be detained without charge for a lengthy period whether or not they are ultimately found to be innocent?
Mr. Coaker: The changes that we have made have been generally welcomed. Our acceptance of the amendments made in the Lords has been widely appreciated, whatever people’s initial views. In trying to ensure that we have the capacity and capability to deal with an emergency, should it arise, the Government have introduced this short Bill. The hon. Gentleman’s constituents would be protected by the law as it stands; for their purposes, nothing that I have said should make a significant difference.
Mr. Hogg: The Minister has referred to a new Bill, which I gather is being drafted in anticipation of some form of crisis. There is no particular reason why we should not debate it in draft at some stage; perhaps the Home Affairs Committee would like to do so. In any event, would it not be sensible to publish it when it has been drafted so that we can all consider it and be well prepared should it be introduced for enactment?
Mr. Coaker: The Bill has been published and is in the Library.
Mr. Coaker: I will pass the right hon. and learned Gentleman my own copy when we have finished this debate. The Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Bill is available in the Library. [ Interruption . ] Presumably it is in the Vote Office as well. My understanding is that it is definitely in the Library, and I will ensure that it is also in the Vote Office.
Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) (Lab): I am grateful to my hon. Friend for allowing me to intervene. I have had exchanges with other Ministers on this topic, but I think that this is my first one with him. In order that there should be no doubt about the issue, the Lords amendment says that
“nothing in this Act allows the Secretary of State to extend the maximum period of pre-charge detention beyond 28 days.”
Is not that the Government’s position? If they come to the view that they want to try again for 42 days, will they not use the new Bill that has been published, as he just stated?
Mr. Coaker: My understanding is that that amendment was tabled to generate debate, not in the belief that it would be passed. It would ensure that nothing in the Bill allows the Secretary of State to extend the maximum period of pre-charge detention when there is nothing in the Bill that allows the Secretary of State to do that. That is why we published this new Bill, which we would seek to use should it be necessary and appropriate to do so.
Mr. Shepherd: This matter is an important consideration for us all. Will the Minister assure the House that the prospective Bill will be brought before the House at the earliest possible opportunity so that we can examine it legislatively to see whether it meets the tests that the current Bill failed in the Lords?
Mr. Coaker: All I can say to the hon. Gentleman is that the proposed Bill is available for him to scrutinise. He will be able to raise questions about it and provoke debate in the normal way. The Bill is there should the Government believe it necessary to introduce it— [ Interruption. ] I understand the hon. Gentleman’s points, but if I could just finish. The Bill would allow the Director of Public Prosecutions to apply to the courts to do certain things. The hon. Gentleman wants a debate in Parliament on that Bill, but we will not have that debate until it is necessary to do so.
Mr. Shepherd:
That is the big issue. The new Bill might be introduced in the midst of a terrorist outrage
and there would be no rational examination to allow us to stand back and consider whether the Bill is appropriate or what we want.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I am anxious not to stifle debate, and I can see how closely these matters are linked, but we ought to deal with one Bill at a time.
Mr. Coaker: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The whole point of the new Bill is that it is available should there be an emergency, when we could bring it before this House and the other place.
Keith Vaz: The point made by the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) when the Home Secretary came before the Select Committee recently, and it concerns the exact moment when the new Bill would be triggered. My hon. Friend asked the Home Secretary whether that would be in the middle of a terrorist outrage. At what time are the provisions of the new Bill likely to be triggered? That is the only issue I am concerned about.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I trust that the Minister heard my earlier remarks and will bear them in mind.
Mr. Coaker: To try to be fair to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz), the Chair of the Select Committee on Home Affairs, we would introduce the new Bill in an emergency, at a time when it may be considered appropriate. Of course, it would be a matter for this House and the other place to pass it, if they deemed it appropriate to do so.
The new Bill is a short, one-off Bill that would enable the Director of Public Prosecutions to apply to the courts to detain a suspected terrorist for up to a maximum of 42 days, in place of the current 28 days. We cannot say categorically when it will be needed—a point that hon. Members have asked about—as whatever the plot, we will always try to bring charges within 28 days. However, if there is a major bomb plot next week, or a dirty bomb, or another 9/11 is planned or executed, and more than 28 days is needed to investigate that matter with a view to bringing those responsible to justice, we will bring the Bill before the House. It will then be a matter for the House to decide upon.
Chris Huhne: The Minister clearly knows that Sir Ken Macdonald, the out-going Director of Public Prosecutions, has gone on record as believing that the administration of the threshold test and the successful conviction rate for terrorist offences meant that any extension of pre-charge detention was unnecessary. Is not it bizarre for the Government to place in the Library a Bill that proposes powers for the Director of Public Prosecutions that he has publicly said that he does not want?
Mr. Coaker: I feel as if I cannot win. The right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) asked where the Bill was that we might introduce, and is happy that it is in the Vote Office and in the Library. The hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne) has criticised me for preparing a Bill that we might use.
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