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He said that it had always been the Government’s intention to include WPPs within the scope of this legislation, but there were concerns from a legal point of view that they would fall foul of the European directives on distance marketing and unfair commercial practices.

In our discussions with bodies such as the ABI—I am sure that there were similar parallel discussions with Ministers—they were very worried that if some clarity were not sought and obtained as a matter of urgency, that could stop in its tracks the healthy growth in WPPs throughout the British workplace. The good news is that the European Commission has now confirmed in writing that it takes the same view as the Government, and this group of amendments reflects that positive outcome. Let us hope that that exchange of letters with the Commission is enough to ensure that there is no future legal challenge on this issue. As far it goes, it is good news for those who were concerned about the Bill’s unintended effect on WPPs. It now seems clear that WPPs can be used to discharge the duty on employers to operate an automatic enrolment system. I very much welcome that, as does, I am sure, everybody involved.

Those are our concerns arising out of this group of amendments. I have argued for amendment (a). Let me leave the House with this thought, which is again to emphasise the huge importance of automatic enrolment in this legislation and for the future of British pensions. That is so much the case that a few days ago the ABI issued a statement asking for it to be dealt with in the pre-Budget report; I am afraid that it was disappointed. It says in its press release:

Earlier today, I spoke at the ABI’s savers conference, where that proposal was again made. At the end of its press release, it says:

It would be interesting to have some indication from the Minister as to whether that forms any part of the Government’s thinking. Beyond that, I have nothing to add, and I look forward to any further comments that the Minister might have.

Paul Rowen (Rochdale) (LD): I join others in congratulating those in the other place on all their hard work. I especially congratulate my colleagues, Lord Oakeshott, Lord Kirkwood and Lord Thomas, and hon. Members here on the work they have done on a mammoth Bill, which is now coming to a close.

25 Nov 2008 : Column 658

In her opening remarks, the Minister rightly commented on how, during the passage of the Bill, we have maintained a broad consensus, which is important for stability and long-term development. This group of amendments— 101 are included, the majority of which the Government introduced—shows that many of the issues and concerns raised during the Bill’s consideration here and in the other place have been listened to, and I welcome that.

As the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Waterson) said, auto-enrolment is the key to the success of the scheme. We are talking about between 4 million and 7 million people being enrolled, and upwards of £170 billion being invested. That is investment of a size and order considerably larger than what has been achieved in other pension schemes. It is a mammoth task, and ensuring that auto-enrolment is made straightforward and effective is going to be the key to the success of the scheme.

Amendments Nos. 9, 10, 11, 13 and 14 clarify the fact that re-enrolment will not apply if a job holder stops saving or opts out within a prescribed period before re-enrolment is due. The amendments set out the timings in more detail. Although we see their necessity, I say to the Minister that we do not want to go down the New Zealand route. It has seen a 30 per cent. drop-out rate on the quick saver scheme. Auto-enrolment is crucial to the Bill’s success and we need to ensure that the Government support employers as much as possible to ensure that re-enrolment is a consistent policy.

I agree with the hon. Member for Eastbourne about auto-enrolment for workplace pension schemes. That element was missing from the pre-Budget report statement yesterday, and I hope that the Minister, when she responds, will give us some idea of when, or if, the Government are considering bringing the date forward. Given the amount of work that has to be undertaken to set up the scheme, the more of the other things that we can get done earlier, and the more we can encourage people in existing schemes to auto-enrol, the better.

I am pleased that the Minister has said that she accepts amendments Nos. 23, 24 and 25, which deal with the value of the earnings threshold and ensure that it does not fall behind the increases in the level of earnings. That is critical to the success of the Bill and to ensuring that people have a pension commensurate with what they need to live on when they retire. We know what has happened to the state pension. The Government have not given a commitment to restore the earnings link by a set date, and as a result many pensioners are in poverty or are having to apply for pension credit. If we are to have a scheme, it is far more preferable to ensure that it keeps up to date with increases in earnings. That is critical. I hope that the Minister will say when she is going to restore the earnings link to the state pension. That measure could have been introduced in the pre-Budget report.

I congratulate the Government on what they have done in amendments Nos. 5, 7, 13, 16, 21, 30, 31, 55 and 134 to permit workplace personal pensions to be used for auto-enrolment. When the Bill was discussed earlier in this House, the major concern was that the auto-enrolment of workplace pensions could have been outlawed by two EU directives. Again, I am grateful for the work that the Department has done to ensure that that is not the case and that the auto-enrolment of workplace pension schemes can continue.

25 Nov 2008 : Column 659
5.45 pm

We support the Conservatives in their amendment (a), which stands in the name of the hon. Member for Eastbourne, to Lords amendment No. 57. We are grateful that the Government accepted Lords amendment No. 57, because it is vital that existing schemes and the duties placed on employers are made as easy as possible. Having a self-certification scheme that does not set unnecessary conditions is critical to the retention of those existing schemes. We have made the point all along that we did not want the Bill to be used as a levelling-down exercise for existing pension schemes, and the amendment would at least ensure a mechanism that would enable employers to comply with their duties satisfactorily. However, the Minister said that she had agreed with stakeholders that there was going to be a review in 2017.

I accept that. However, in the other place, Baroness Noakes questioned the need to allow the Secretary of State automatically to sweep the provision away. She did not receive a satisfactory answer, so I hope that the Minister will give us one today. Our view is that if such a major change—one that could affect existing pension schemes—is to be contemplated, it should be the subject of primary legislation. So far, the Government have taken all the various groups with them—stakeholders and the parties in this place. I would not want the change made possible by Lords amendment No. 57 as drafted to be made, so I hope that the Minister will reconsider her position. It is not a pressing issue—the Government will not fall if amendment (a) is accepted and it will not materially change the workings of the Bill—but in the long term, people would be given the satisfaction of being listened to.

Lords amendment No. 159 deals with the director of a corporate body not counting as a worker. Again, that seems to be a sensible amendment and we support it.

Miss Julie Kirkbride (Bromsgrove) (Con): I, too, welcome the Minister to her new role. Picking up a complicated Bill after Committee, Report and Third Reading cannot be the easiest thing to do. However, as other hon. Members have said, there has been constructive engagement among all the parties—the parties in this House and stakeholders outside—on the way forward for these measures, as well as broad cross-party support, because we need to increase pension saving across the nation. It is therefore reassuring that that engagement has continued.

However, I would like to echo the concerns that have been expressed. If there has been one disagreement among the political parties, it is the prospect of those of our fellow citizens who have a better pension scheme than that which will be offered under the Bill finding their scheme being levelled down. Once the provisions come into force, there will clearly be a temptation for employers to look again at what they offer and to contemplate having all their employees—or at least all their new employees—on a scheme that complies with the standards of the Bill, rather than on the scheme currently in place.

I sincerely hope that the Minister will take into account the concerns that have been raised about having a self-certification scheme, so that there will not be any payroll issues relating to the administrative costs of the new measures. My particular worry, given the debate so far, is that the Minister wants to be able to strike out
25 Nov 2008 : Column 660
what is good in the Bill by ministerial decree, rather than through further debate in the House. Employers want reassurance on this issue, and will not want to think that the self-certification provision can be taken out by ministerial decree, because that will add to the de minimis situation. We need to hear some good reasons why the Government’s way forward is a good one, because the sanctions for employers who do not fully comply and co-operate include imprisonment.

Yesterday, we heard about the seriousness of the economic situation facing the country, and the Bill will add further pressure for employers, who will also face a national insurance increase around the time the Bill comes into effect. The pressures on them will be considerable, and the maximum reassurance that the House and the Minister can offer will be appreciated. I look forward to hearing her arguments, which might be in agreement with Conservative arguments.

Ms Rosie Winterton: First, I thank the hon. Members for Eastbourne (Mr. Waterson), for Rochdale (Paul Rowen) and for Bromsgrove (Miss Kirkbride)—I know that the hon. Lady was also on the Committee—for their points about consensus, which has been an important part of our debates.

The hon. Member for Rochdale spoke about earnings upratings. We have certainly made clear our commitment to introducing an earnings uprating of the basic state pension. Our objective, subject to affordability and the fiscal position, is to do that in 2012, but we want to do it by the end of the next Parliament at the latest. We will make a statement on the precise date at the beginning of the next Parliament. I assure the hon. Member for Eastbourne that we will not lose interest in this issue just because the Bill is passing into its final stages. I look forward to having many discussions with him and his colleagues in the coming months and years about the various regulations and about the detail of issues such as qualifying earnings.

As both hon. Gentlemen said, we have had discussions with the European Commission about bringing forward workplace personal pensions. We are well aware that the industry wants to proceed with automatic enrolment before the planned introduction of the duties from 2012, but the relationship between the employer duty and automatic enrolment makes it difficult to do that outside of bringing in the general scheme. However, we are keen to find ways of helping employers and providers to increase participation in personal pensions today and to make the transition from active joining to automatic enrolment, under the employer duty, as soon as possible. There will be many more discussions on this issue, but there will be firm encouragement for people to participate in the schemes.

I hope to persuade the Opposition to withdraw their amendment. I hope also that the hon. Member for Rochdale will take note of the points that stakeholders have made on certification in what has been a constructive process. We have agreed to review the effectiveness of the certification procedure in 2017. As hon. Members have said, it is designed to make it easier for employers to cope with the new arrangements for workplace pension saving, using their existing provision. We hope that that will go some way towards reducing the risk of levelling down, but there is a possibility of certification leading to unintended consequences for the employer or employee.
25 Nov 2008 : Column 661
We must make sure that individuals do not routinely save at levels below those recommended by the Pensions Commission. Also, employers might become more inclined to use the quality standard without certification, thereby making the procedure redundant.

It would be absurd for the House to rule out, at this stage, the possibility of removing certification if there were widespread consensus in 2017, through a review, that that needed to be done. It would not be appropriate then to have to wait for more primary legislation. I urge the Opposition to withdraw their amendment. There are good reasons why we have made the changes that their amendment would completely undermine.

Miss Kirkbride: Does not the Minister see that having that sword of Damocles hanging over their heads might make employers, especially rogue employers and those who are less keen to comply with what the Government want to do, more inclined to go for the lowest common denominator pension scheme?

Ms Winterton: No, I do not think that is the case. The certification procedure has been agreed with stakeholders, and employers were keen on having it to reduce the burden on them, so I do not see why the possibility of it being removed would have that effect. This is about ensuring that people make the right contribution. I honestly believe that we should have the ability to remove certification if necessary.

Lords amendment agreed to.

Lords amendments Nos. 2 to 56 agreed to.

After Clause 25

Lords amendment : No. 57.

Amendment proposed: (a) thereto —[Mr. Waterson.]

Question put, That the amendment to the Lords amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 220, Noes 286.
Division No. 338]
[5.57 pm


Afriyie, Adam
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Alexander, Danny
Amess, Mr. David
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Bacon, Mr. Richard
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Baron, Mr. John
Barrett, John
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Bercow, John
Binley, Mr. Brian
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Bone, Mr. Peter
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brake, Tom
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Browning, Angela
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burrowes, Mr. David
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Butterfill, Sir John
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Cameron, rh Mr. David
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clappison, Mr. James
Clark, Greg
Clegg, rh Mr. Nick
Curry, rh Mr. David
Davey, Mr. Edward
Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth)
Davies, Philip

Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen
Dorries, Mrs. Nadine
Dunne, Mr. Philip
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Evennett, Mr. David
Fallon, Mr. Michael
Farron, Tim
Field, Mr. Mark
Foster, Mr. Don
Fox, Dr. Liam
Francois, Mr. Mark
Fraser, Christopher
Gale, Mr. Roger
Garnier, Mr. Edward
Gauke, Mr. David
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gidley, Sandra
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goldsworthy, Julia
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gove, Michael
Gray, Mr. James
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Hague, rh Mr. William
Hammond, Mr. Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harper, Mr. Mark
Harris, Dr. Evan
Harvey, Nick
Hayes, Mr. John
Heald, Mr. Oliver
Heath, Mr. David
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hemming, John
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, Nick
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Holloway, Mr. Adam
Holmes, Paul
Horam, Mr. John
Horwood, Martin
Hosie, Stewart
Howard, rh Mr. Michael
Howarth, David
Howell, John
Huhne, Chris
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hunter, Mark
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Jenkin, Mr. Bernard
Jones, Mr. David
Kawczynski, Daniel
Keetch, Mr. Paul
Key, Robert
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Kramer, Susan
Laing, Mrs. Eleanor
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lancaster, Mr. Mark
Laws, Mr. David
Leech, Mr. John
Leigh, Mr. Edward
Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver
Lidington, Mr. David
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
Maclean, rh David
MacNeil, Mr. Angus
Main, Anne
Malins, Mr. Humfrey
Maples, Mr. John
Mason, John
Mates, rh Mr. Michael
Maude, rh Mr. Francis
May, rh Mrs. Theresa
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Mercer, Patrick
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Moore, Mr. Michael
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mulholland, Greg
Mundell, David
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, Mr. George
Ottaway, Richard
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Penrose, John
Pickles, Mr. Eric
Price, Adam
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Randall, Mr. John
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Reid, Mr. Alan
Rennie, Willie
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Rowen, Paul
Ruffley, Mr. David
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Scott, Mr. Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Mr. Keith
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Spelman, Mrs. Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob
Spring, Mr. Richard
Steen, Mr. Anthony
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Stuart, Mr. Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Swire, Mr. Hugo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Mr. Ian
Taylor, Matthew
Taylor, Dr. Richard

Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr. Edward
Tredinnick, David
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Viggers, Sir Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve
Weir, Mr. Mike
Whittingdale, Mr. John
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, Mr. David
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mark
Williams, Stephen
Willis, Mr. Phil
Wilshire, Mr. David
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Wishart, Pete
Wright, Jeremy
Yeo, Mr. Tim
Tellers for the Ayes:

Michael Fabricant and
James Duddridge

Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Mr. David
Anderson, Janet
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Austin, John
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Balls, rh Ed
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Benn, rh Hilary
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Blunkett, rh Mr. David
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Bradshaw, Mr. Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Des
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Byers, rh Mr. Stephen
Byrne, rh Mr. Liam
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Chaytor, Mr. David
Clark, Ms Katy
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davies, Mr. Dai
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Devine, Mr. Jim
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Engel, Natascha
Ennis, Jeff
Field, rh Mr. Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Godsiff, Mr. Roger
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hamilton, Mr. Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet

Harris, Mr. Tom
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, rh John
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Hutton, rh Mr. John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Irranca-Davies, Huw
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Kelly, rh Ruth
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Khan, Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, rh Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, rh Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Mr. Ivan
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
Mactaggart, Fiona
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McCartney, rh Mr. Ian
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr. Pat
McFall, rh John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
Meale, Mr. Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Mr. Austin
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Morgan, Julie
Morley, rh Mr. Elliot
Mudie, Mr. George
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mr. Mike
Olner, Mr. Bill
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Prescott, rh Mr. John
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Roy, Mr. Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Christine
Ryan, rh Joan
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad
Sharma, Mr. Virendra
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Simpson, Alan
Singh, Mr. Marsha
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andy
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, Geraldine
Smith, rh Jacqui
Smith, John
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, Ian

Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Tami, Mark
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, David
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Truswell, Mr. Paul
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Twigg, Derek
Ussher, Kitty
Vaz, rh Keith
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Waltho, Lynda
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Watson, Mr. Tom
Watts, Mr. Dave
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Wills, rh Mr. Michael
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wood, Mike
Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Dr. Tony
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Noes:

Ms Dawn Butler and
Helen Jones
Question accordingly negatived.
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