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Session 2007 - 08 Publications on the internet General Committee Debates Children and Young Persons Bill [Lords] |
Children and Young Persons Bill [Lords] |
The Committee consisted of the following Members:Mr. C. Shaw,
Mr. M. Hillyard, Committee
Clerks † attended the
Committee Public Bill CommitteeTuesday 24 June 2008(Morning)[Mr. Greg Pope in the Chair]Children and Young Persons Bill [Lords]10.30
am
The
Chairman: Good morning. I would like to begin with a few
announcements. Some Members have beaten me to this—Members may
remove their jackets during Committee sittings. It is warm in here. I
remind Members to switch mobile phones, pagers, BlackBerrys and so
forth off, or to silent. I remind the Committee that there is a money
resolution in connection with the Bill, copies of which are available
in the room. I also remind Members that adequate notice should be given
of amendments. As a general rule, I and my fellow Chairman do not
intend to call starred amendments.
The
Committee will be first asked to consider the programme motion on the
amendment paper, the debate on which is limited to half an hour. We
will then proceed to a motion to report written evidence, which I hope
can be taken formally. If the Committee agrees to the programme motion,
we will begin scrutiny
immediately.
The
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Children, Schools and
Families (Kevin Brennan): I beg to
move, That— (1)
the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at
10.30 a.m. on Tuesday 24th June) meet,
(a) at 4.00
p.m. on Tuesday 24th
June; (b)
at 9.00 a.m. on Thursday 26th
June; (c)
at 10.30 a.m. and 4.00 p.m. on Tuesday 1st July;
and (d)
at 9.00 a.m. and 1.00 p.m. on Thursday 3rd
July; (2) the
proceedings shall be taken in the following order: Clauses 1
to 9; Schedule 1; Clauses 10 to 39; Schedule 2; Clauses 40 to 42;
Schedule 3; Clauses 43 to 45; new Clauses; new Schedules; remaining
proceedings on the
Bill; (3) the
proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a
conclusion at 5.00 p.m. on Thursday 3rd
July. It
is a genuine pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first
time, Mr. Pope, following an encouraging Second Reading
which reflected the widespread commitment on both sides of the House to
the issues in the
Bill. I
understand that there was accord in the usual channels regarding the
programme motion. I draw hon. Members’ attention to the fact
that we will not be sitting on Thursday afternoon of this week. We were
only too happy to agree to that, to accommodate the needs of Members of
the Opposition. With those brief pleasantries, and in this perhaps not
typical Wimbledon weather, I thank you, Mr. Pope, for
allowing us to remove our
jackets. Tim
Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): I welcome you,
Mr. Pope. I do not think that I have served under your
chairmanship. I am sure that you will be exceedingly fair and
accommodating. I am
particularly pleased that the Minister is leading for the Government. He
and I are veterans of these things, going back to the Adoption and
Children Act 2002 and other
legislation. I
am particularly pleased to be joined on the Opposition Benches by an
ace team of veterans. My hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight was
on Committee considering the Children Act 2004 with me, and my hon.
Friend the Member for Bromsgrove who will be joining us
later—she sent her apologies—was on the Childcare Act
2006. There is also a debut Committee performance by my hon. Friend the
Member for Crewe and Nantwich, after his excellent maiden speech in the
debate on the Bill last week. He brings to the Committee a wealth of
experience from many years on the family court circuit in the north of
England. He also has great experience of fostering in his own family. I
am sure that he will end up teaching all of us a thing or
two. I
endorse the Minister’s comments on the excellent Second Reading,
and point out that this is a pretty uncontentious Bill. It was amended
for the good in the Lords, and we seek to support it as much as
possible and to speed its enactment. There are areas where we want to
add detail, and we want to tighten up some of the good intentions,
which I think all members of the Committee will agree with. It will be
a constructive debate and
dialogue. The
way in which the amendments have been ordered means that there is an
awful lot of activity at the back end. There are not that many
amendments, and they are mostly probing or technical ones, but there
are no fewer than 32 new clauses. There are almost as many new clauses
as amendments. Things that might have been seen as amendments have been
turned into new clauses on a whole host of subjects, including
independent reviewing officers, advocacy, residential placements and
some of their terms of scrutiny, and teachers and governors having
responsibilities in schools. There are also some new clauses that we
have tabled. One is on having a welfare checklist, which we would like
to see at the heart of the
Bill. We
would also like to see proposals on the role of a chief social worker.
We might have debated that at the beginning, during our considerations
of the first six clauses, but in your wisdom, Mr. Pope, you
have decided that we should come back to that new clause
later.
We are keen
to move through the early clauses as speedily and constructively as
possible, because new clauses have been tabled by not only the
Opposition, but the Liberal Democrats and some Government Back
Benchers, and we are keen to leave sufficient time to debate those
fully nearer the end of our proceedings. On that basis, we are happy
with the programme motion. However, rather than having only an hour
during the final sitting to debate 20 new clauses, it would be nice to
pace ourselves accordingly and give them the proper debating time that
they
merit. Annette
Brooke (Mid-Dorset and North Poole) (LD): This is the
first time that I have served under your chairmanship, Mr.
Pope, and it is a pleasure. I am pleased that the Minister is leading
for the Government, as we have met before in other Committees. I would
also like to pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion,
because not only does he bring valuable
experience of schools, which relates to an important aspect of the Bill,
but we feel that there should be some Welsh input from the opposition
parties, as most of the Bill will apply to Wales. I am looking forward
to the Committee’s proceedings and hope that they meet my
expectations, because we are primarily in agreement that we need to do
much better for vulnerable children. Having the opportunity to make a
positive contribution to young peoples’ lives is a privilege, so
I hope that all of our debates will be in that spirit.
We made a
number of points on Second Reading that we want to take forward and in
relation to which we want to have more detailed debate. Many of our
concerns require clarification and pushing further. On Second Reading,
I said that so much is dealt with in guidance and regulation that
Committee is the only chance for us to get in there and ensure that the
guidance and regulations will be implemented. Implementation will be
the key to all of this. We can have all of our grand words, but unless
we get it right and get the messages out to the wider world, we will
not make the difference that I am sure we all wish to
achieve. Question
put and agreed
to. Ordered, That,
subject to the discretion of the Chairman, any written evidence
received by the Committee shall be reported to the House for
publication.—[Kevin
Brennan.]
The
Chairman: Copies of any memoranda that the Committee
receives will be made available in the Committee Room, although none
have been received so
far.
Clause 1Power
to enter into arrangements for discharge of care
functions Question
proposed, That the clause stand part of the
Bill.
Kevin
Brennan: It would be remiss of me not to mention the array
of talent that I have with me on this side of the Committee, including
my right hon. Friend the Minister for Children, Young People and
Families, who has a tremendous amount of experience in these matters
and, indeed, was greatly involved with the genesis of the Bill through
the “Care Matters” White Paper that was published last
June. There is also a wealth of experience behind me, including my hon.
Friend the Member for Worcester, who I am sure will do all that he can
to help us achieve the Opposition’s strictures on debating the
Bill in full and going through all of the new clauses.
In the past,
Opposition Members have criticised the Government for their handling of
what have sometimes been called—by myself
included—“Wallace and Gromit” Bills, because the
track is laid as the Committee proceeds. With this number of new
clauses, perhaps the Opposition could be accused of something similar,
but all of these are serious and important matters that need to be
debated in full. With the aid of all members of the Committee, I am
sure that we will be able to do
that. Members
of the Committee will know that the Bill is based on the “Care
Matters” White Paper, which was published last June, and the
care implementation plan.
By way of introduction to clause 1, perhaps I might indulge you,
Mr. Pope, by setting out the context of the Bill and talking
about Part 1, which includes clauses 1 to 6, because of the intricate
way in which those clauses are interrelated. I think that that would be
relevant to this clause stand part
debate. The
Bill and White Paper are structured around four key principles. The
first is ensuring good parenting from every person involved in these
children’s lives. The second is giving young children a voice in
the decisions that affect their future. The third is ensuring stability
and continuity and the fourth is raising the aspirations of children in
care. Part 1 will enable us to pilot social work practices. It will
allow local authorities to delegate some of their social service
functions to more autonomous practices that will be charged with
putting the principles into
practice. We
are all aware of the many problems faced by looked-after children. We
have heard of cases of children seeing as many as 30 different social
workers and going through nine or 10 care placements within a few
years. We cannot expect young people to set out on the path to success
that we are all aiming for if they are living from one month to the
next and are reluctant to make ties, whether to social workers, schools
or foster carers, lest they be broken. That experience of care often
comes on top of horrific experiences such as abuse and neglect. The
outcomes for looked-after children are far too
poor. The
White Paper sets out action that we will take on a number of fronts.
One of those is to test whether the social work practices introduced
under part 1 provide the right framework and deliver significant
improvements for children and young people in care. I will set out how
the clauses in part 1 fit together because they are intimately
connected. That will give a broader view of what we are trying to
achieve. Clause
1 provides that local authorities can delegate their social service
functions relating to looked-after children and care leavers to social
work practices, referred to in the Bill
as “providers
of social work
services”. The
thinking behind that is to give social workers a sense of ownership and
control over their work. That should stimulate greater innovation and
support better relationships with children. Social work practices might
be a good thing for social work as well as for our most vulnerable
children. That is why we are committed to giving local authorities,
which are dedicated to providing improved outcomes for their children
in care, the opportunity to try this new
approach. As
provided for in the later clauses, we intend to run a set of
tightly-controlled pilots for evaluation purposes, lasting initially
for two years. Those pilot arrangements are likely to continue in place
while the decision is made whether to roll out the model more widely.
My Department will select the local authorities that will pilot social
work practices and will assist with the set-up and operation of the
pilots in partnership with the sector. Crucially, that will include the
Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of
Children’s Services, which is already closely engaged. Together,
we will develop tools for the pilots, including a model contract, a
payment structure and a proactive contract-management approach to
support effective operation.
Mr.
David Kidney (Stafford) (Lab): Is my hon. Friend aware
that the Children’s Rights Alliance for England is concerned
about the possible loss of human rights protection for children in and
leaving care because of contracted-out services? Is it his view that
the architecture of the Bill preserves their human rights protections
or is it within his contemplation that they will lose them under the
pilots?
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