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Session 2007 - 08 Publications on the internet General Committee Debates Children and Young Persons |
Children and Young Persons Bill [Lords] |
The Committee consisted of the following Members:Chris
Shaw, Mick Hillyard, Committee
Clerks attended the
Committee Public Bill CommitteeThursday 26 June 2008[Hywel Williams in the Chair]Children and Young Persons Bill [Lords]9
am
Clause 10General
duty of local authority to secure sufficient
accommodation Tim
Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): I beg to move
amendment No. 10, in clause 10, page 9,
line 10, after of, insert
appropriate. I
shall take my jacket off while introducing my amendment, Mr.
Williams. I welcome you to the Committeeyour liberal strictures
are greatly welcome. We made quite a lot of progress on Tuesday, some
of which you witnessed in preparation for today.
We now come
to clause 10 and a small probing amendment in my name and those of my
hon. Friends. The Government inserted clause 10 in Committee in the
Lords to place a duty on local authorities
to take steps
that secure, so far as reasonably
practicable, accommodation
that meets childrens needs within the local authority area. We
have debated at length the desirability of children in the care system
staying as close as possible to their home environment, friends and
family.
Before the
hon. Member for Stafford jumps up, let me say that my party very much
welcomes the clause, which is good and positive. However, we would like
to add to it a requirement that the accommodation be
appropriate. We go back to the principle behind the
phrase have regard to. It is slightly woolly to ask
local authorities, with all the pressures that they face, merely to
fulfil a minimum requirement to
have regard to
the benefit of having...a number of accommodation
providers. The
Under-Secretary might say that everything will be covered in
regulations, and it would be good to have that clarity, but we do not
have the regulations before us, so we can only speculate as to their
contents. It would therefore be helpful to add
appropriate to new section 22G(4) of the Children Act
1989, which is inserted by the clause.
As we have
discussed, continuity and stability of accommodation are important to a
child from a traumatic background. If a local authority merely has
regard to the benefits of making sure that there are a number of bed
and breakfasts available in its area, that will not provide the
stability and quality of accommodation that many of these young people
need, particularly if they have special needs. A case has been made
that children with acute and complex needs require the most appropriate
care placements, but the wording of the
clause does not suggest that local authorities need toalthough
obviously they would like togo beyond simply ensuring that
accommodation providers are available in their
area. Helen
Southworth (Warrington, South) (Lab): Will my right hon.
Friendsorry, the hon. Gentleman, although he is always a
friendgive
way?
Helen
Southworth: Calling the hon. Gentleman my hon. Friend
demonstrates that I have a lot of sympathy for his argument, but I
would draw his attention to subsection (2)(b), which I was extremely
pleased to see included, because it uses the
words meets
the needs of those
children. I
hope that he will press the Minister on what that means and what local
authorities need to do to fulfil that duty.
Tim
Loughton: The hon. and very friendly Lady makes an
appropriate point. It is useful to debate a probing amendment to the
clause to tease out exactly what the Government mean, because the
phrase meets
the needs of those
children can
be taken in different ways. Accommodation that meets childrens
need to have a basic roof over their head might not meet their need to
have accommodation appropriate to their disabilities, for example.
Alternatively, children might have a mental health problem or learning
disability that would be sensitive to the people accommodated around
them, whether inside or outside the care system where they are placed.
There is a need to meet not only their need for basic accommodation,
but their needs relating to how they are to live in that accommodation
and with the people around
them. I
should appreciate the Ministers interpretation of how local
authorities will be required to do more than just have regard to the
existence of sufficient accommodation, but will have to make sure, as
far as is practicable, that the accommodation is appropriate for the
young personthat it meets their needs and is appropriate to
them in terms of the environment where they are expected to live, both
physically and mentally, and in terms of the people around
them.
The
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Children, Schools and
Families (Kevin Brennan): Diolch yn fawrthank
youMr. Williams. [Interruption.] Despite the
sighing of the hon. Member for East Worthing and
Shorehamperhaps I could call him my hon. Friend, if not my
right hon. Friend, which would be out of orderit is a pleasure
to see you in the Chair this
morning. The
Government inserted the clause in the other place to place on local
authorities a general duty to take steps to secure, as far as is
reasonably practicable, sufficient accommodation in their area that
meets the needs of the children they look after. In doing that, they
must have regard to the benefit of having a number of accommodation
providers in their area sufficient to enable them to perform their
duty. That means that local authorities will have to be able to justify
the
decisions that they make to provide the sufficient accommodation without
commissioning any from third
parties. I
understand the sentiments outlined by the hon. Member for East Worthing
and Shoreham, which inform the amendment, but the amendment is
unnecessary, because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington,
South hinted, the clause already makes it clear that any accommodation
provided for looked-after children must be capable of meeting their
various needs, and must by implication be, in the words of the
amendment, appropriate.
Indeed, the
existing regulatory framework sets clear requirements for accommodation
if it is to be considered appropriate for looked-after children. All
childrens homes and fostering services must be registered under
the Care Standards Act 2000. They must comply with regulations and meet
the national minimum standards. All childrens homes are
inspected against those national minimum standards by Her
Majesty chief inspector of education, childrens
services and skills.
Fostering
services are responsible for approving individual foster carers and
ensuring that they provide an appropriate environment. Standard 6 of
the fostering services national minimum standards requires fostering
services to make
available foster
carers who provide a safe, healthy and nurturing
environment. A
robust system is already provided in that way to ensure that all
accommodation for looked-after children is of an appropriate
standard. On
the hon. Gentlemans point about specialist need, we recognise
that it will not always be reasonably practicable for every local
authority to make provision in its area to meet every type of potential
need; but for those particularly complex needs that require highly
specialised care, we would expect local authorities to work together to
commission the necessary provision on a regional or sub-regional basis.
We have been supporting such collaboration through regional
commissioning pilots. I am sure that later in our consideration of the
Bill we shall discuss some of those complex needs and placements of
children. It
is, however, important to note that we are not saying that we believe
that complex needs cannot be met by placements in area. Indeed, in the
development of the short break pathfinders, there are several good
examples of innovative solutions to problems of providing
accommodation, albeit on a short-term basis, for children with complex
needs. We expect the learning from commissioning and developing those
to be shared and disseminated to help local authorities to develop
provision for all children, including those with complex needs, within
their areas, so that more children can stay in their area, if it is
appropriate. We are setting up a programme of peer support for local
authorities and childrens trust partners so that they can learn
from each other about effective commissioning practices. I understand
that this is a probing
amendment. Annette
Brooke (Mid-Dorset and North Poole) (LD): It is a pleasure
to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Williams. I want to
ask one question before the Minister sits down. It relates not to
severe disability needs, but to those authorities that place large
numbers of children outside the authority because of a lack of
places. Will there be a time scale by which authorities will be judged
on providing accommodation within their boundaries for young people who
do not have complex disability
needs?
Kevin
Brennan: When the Bill comes into force, the sufficiency
duty in the clause will come into effect. We will expect all local
authorities, as far as is reasonably practicable, to be able to meet
all the needs of looked-after children in their area. As I outlined, we
understand that in some cases it may not be possible to meet all the
complex needs of looked-after children within area; in such cases we
will expect local authorities to work on a regional or sub-regional
basis to meet those needs, and we have been piloting such arrangements.
As for the time scale, local authorities should be doing that when the
Bill comes into
force. Angela
Watkinson (Upminster) (Con): Bore da, Mr.
Williams. The Minister has referred to co-operation between local
authorities. From time to time in London authorities and perhaps
elsewhere in the country, young people leaving care are given council
tenancies in another local authority area without the knowledge of that
local authority. Such young people may not have the social or life
skills to sustain an independent home successfully, and often they get
into trouble with the police. It would be helpful if the local
authority and perhaps the police in the area that they moved to were
informed, so that problems could be headed off, rather than dealt with
reactively after they
arise.
Kevin
Brennan: I commend the hon. Lady on her able demonstration
of the language of heaven. She makes a very good point. When good
practice is followed, the scenario that she describes should not arise.
Some of the Bill, along with the broader Care Matters
implementation agenda, is about trying to effect the sort of change in
practice on the ground that she wants, but that cannot be achieved
entirely through statute. There is good practice around the country in
dealing with people who want to live independently at a young age. We
are trying to limit young people doing so further by giving them other
options through the Bill and the Care Matters
agenda. Some
local authorities are using innovative practices to avoid the situation
described by the hon. Lady. I saw a very good example in south
Gloucester, where a trainer flat is used when a young person is
considering moving out into the community. They are given a short
three-week tenancy in a flat owned by the local authority to try out
living on their own. To be frank, some young people then realise the
difficulties of paying bills, having to live with neighbours and the
sheer loneliness of having to cope alone. Some accept wiser counsel and
decide it is right to stay with their foster carers or wherever they
have been living, just as many young people in other families would do.
The average age of young people leaving home is 24, not 16, 18 or 21.
That is the sort of good practice that we want to
encourage. 9.15
am In
the clause, our aim is to ensure that young people are not placed a
long way from their support mechanisms, friends and peers, and normal
educational establishment, and that there is a lever to put pressure on
local authorities
to provide appropriate accommodation within area wherever practically
possible, as the amendment emphasises. On that basis, I ask that the
amendment be withdrawn
.
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