Climate Change Bill [Lords]
Gregory Barker: Those terms are themselves open to interpretation. What does the Minister believe a sustainable economy actually means? That phrase is often abused or misused.
Mr. Woolas: A sustainable economy is a low-carbon economy that puts a net contribution to carbon in the air in a downward direction. It is about not only carbon, but how we ensure that we recycle and reuse resources without a net depletion of the earths natural resources, including biodiversity. I am getting too academicfor the Committee as a whole, not particularly for you, Mr. Cookand you are going to pull me back. I wish that I had not said that.
Let me turn to amendment No. 39. To ensure that we meet our objectives for the five principles, we require that every Department publishes a sustainable development action plan. In addition, the impact assessment process, which must be applied to every new policy, requires appraisals of the environmental, social and economic costs and benefits of policies. As hon. Members know, we try to build the idea of sustainability that stems from Rio into everything that we do. The reason for enshrining the principle in legislation, therefore, is to ensure that policy makers keep applying good sustainable development in future years and under future Governments. We also expect to be closely scrutinised by Parliament against the sustainable development requirement in the Bill.
The Government added subsection (3), which the amendment would remove, in the other place. We were responding to the strong views held there, with which we agreed, that the proposals and policies should contribute to sustainable development. For the reasons that I have explained, that is important and something that should be retained. I understand the intention behind amendment No. 39, but it would not achieve that aim.
David Maclean: Does the Minister mean that the Bill should contribute to sustainable development in the UK only, or that the policies and proposals in the Bill should help to contribute to sustainable development in the world, which would allow carbon trading and so on?
Mr. Woolas: Within the world. Our sustainability is dependent on that point. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the often arduous process of international agreement. The acceptance of sustainable development in United Nations forums, and the fact that it is written into treaties, is extremely important for this country and the rest of the world. To try to extract that would be
Amendment No. 55, which relates to achieving sustainable development, is about creating the right balance. We need to ensure that the UKs package of policies for reducing emissions maintains the balance among the key elements of sustainable development. It would be a good idea to compare this policy with the carbon budget itself. Within the context of meeting a carbon budget, some Government policies may give rise to increased emissions, but the important principle is that the total net UK carbon account should be restricted. Given that policies to meet budgets are in that way considered as a whole, it makes sense that they should contribute to sustainable development as a whole. I have already set out the existing processes that are applied to every new policy individually.
Mr. Gummer: I am unhappy about that particular part of the explanation. For example, the Ministry of Justice is just about to take over a newly refurbished building that used to be the Home Office. Despite considerable efforts, the Ministry of Justice still refused to accept that putting in hydrofluorocarbon-driven air conditioning was wholly contrary to any concept of sustainable development. It said that, taken as a whole, what it was doing was better than what was there before. Of course, it was Mr. John Gieve who did that, as is the case on many such occasions. The fact of the matter is that the one get-out that every civil servant and every Minister has is to say, Taken as a whole, our policies are right, but we have an excuse for this one. The new Home Office had the same excuse. It said that it had signed up to the waste electrical and electronic equipment directive, which would not allow non-HFC air conditioning. I use that example because, after all, HFCs are 2,000 times as damaging to the climate as CO2. Unless we take everything into account and do not allow Departments to get away with taken as a whole, we will not win the battle.
Mr. Woolas: I felt uncomfortable in putting the argument because I knew that the right hon. Gentleman would come up with an example that would be difficult to justify. In practice, under the new regime in the Bill, the carbon reduction commitment will include Whitehall Departments, so the taken as a whole excuse will be removed. I know that he will welcome that in the real world.
My second argument is stronger and more convincing. Consider the opposite situation, in which one had to judge every action and policy as part of the whole and to rule out any action or proposal that, in and of itself, was damaging according to the sustainability criteria. An ambulance trip that used polluting fuels, taken as a whole, would not be allowed, and one could consider other examples. The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head in mystification, but that is a good example.
There are times when actions are necessary. The impact of the action may be negative, but it can contribute to an action that is positive overall. It is rather like asking which is the most important wheel on the carthe front right, the front left, the back right or the back leftwhen all are needed.
Mr. Gummer: On the Ministers example of the ambulance, there can be no one alive who would not agree that it would be a contribution to sustainable development to ensure that somebody got to hospital in time. That must be the serious answer to the question. No one would say that we should not do something because it costs a certain amount of carbon to do it.
However, a question must be asked about the individual action. We cannot allow an individual action to be smothered by the generality of taken as a whole. I cannot imagine a single proper action that would be stopped by the removing the phrase taken as a whole, but I can imagine many improper actions that would be more difficult if the excuse did not exist. I believe that in the Ministers heart of hearts he knows that taking that little bit out would not put anyone in a difficult position. Leaving it in will mean that they will go on doing the things that they do now, as we have seen in the two examples that I gave.
Mr. Woolas: I did not find the right hon. Gentlemans argument against my ambulance analogy very convincing. I thought that I did well in picking that example against the much tougher example of his experience of the Government Department.
Let me reinforce my point. By including the phrase taken as a whole, we are allowing for the carbon budget, and the policies and proposals to meet it, to allow an increase in emissions in some areas so long as they are paid for, and more so, elsewhere in the economy.
The hon. Member for Cheltenham said that we had supported the third runway at Heathrow. Let me be clear about the Governments policy. We said that we would support the development of the third runway, but only if we could be confident of meeting the strict environmental conditions set out in the White Paper. There is clearly a net judgment in all these matters. If one were simply to delete taken as a whole from subsection (3), that would not allow our economy to function properly. It would not allow people to go about their daily business. It is the whole that we are trying to address, not each individual part. The right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal continues to look bemused.
Mr. Gummer: The Minister has explained the difference between us. I do not believe that we should do anything that cannot be said to contribute to sustainable development. That is why I am opposed to the third runway at Heathrow, which is nonsense, and I am certainly opposed to reworking the figures to make that fit the environmental requirements, which is what the Government did, as the hon. Member for Cheltenham pointed out. However, the point is that the Minister must believe that the third runway at Heathrow contributes to sustainable development, because if it does not contribute to sustainable development, he cannot support it. That is the problem for us. We are committed to a concept that nothing of that kind should be done unless it contributes to sustainable development. If it is unsustainable, we should not do it. That is why Opposition Members are very strongly opposed to the methodology that the Government are using. That is why the phrase taken as a whole is so dangerous.
Mr. Woolas: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. He has outlined a principle very clearly, and I admire him for that. He is right that I do not agree with him. I do not accept that we can run our economy in a sustainable way, taken as a whole, based on the principle that he has outlined. That would prevent us from doing many of the things that we already do, and one could argue that in all sorts of ways. I will stick with my ambulance example. He says that if there is a policy in isolation that does not in and of itself contribute to sustainability, we should not do it. I think that there should be other judgmentsit might depend on who is in the back of the ambulance.
Let me remind the right hon. Gentleman of Ministers responsibilities. Let us suppose that it was my certain belief, based on advice, knowledge and certain communicationI shall deliberately choose the difficult example of Heathrow to try to pursue my argumentthat a failure to expand Heathrow would inevitably result in an expansion of Charles de Gaulle and Schiphol. I am not saying that, just in case the journalists are quoting me out of context, as they never do in either the Daily Mail or The Guardian. However, let us suppose that, and that the policies of the Governments of the day of France and the Netherlands did not impose environmental criteria on Charles de Gaulle and Schiphol and excluded them from their considerations. Let us say, therefore, that the emissions caused by the expansion of aviation at those two airports would be greater than those predicted as a result of Heathrow. What would be the right decision under the right hon. Gentlemans principle?
Mr. Gummer: But then the hon. Gentleman would be making what he should be making: a decision on sustainability. He is saying that he will have looked at the circumstances not in the round or as a whole, but on that specific decision, given the particular parameters that he has put forward, and he would be making a proper decision about sustainability. It would not be about taken as a whole, as he has interpreted it. He would have interpreted that phrase as meaning that one can score off sustainability with other interests. I am saying that the definition of sustainabilitythis is why the question of how one defines sustainability is so importantinvolves making the sort of decision that the hon. Gentleman has just made. We disagree about the third runway at Heathrow because I do not believe that it is necessary, because there are other ways of doing things, and because the proposition that he put forward is not true as it would not stop anyone else from building runways. Indeed, it would encourage them. Therefore, the proposal is not sustainable.
If the Minister continues to use his argument, he is making the same references as I have made. He does not need the words taken as a whole. That is what we are arguing about, not a runway. The phrase is not necessary to defend him in his position. If it were left in the clause, it would enable someone to decide to have a third runway, even though that person had not made out a sustainable case for it.
Mr. Woolas: Fascinating, except that the Bill requires those criteria to be judged. The logical consequence of the right hon. Gentlemans principled stand is that we would not need the rest of the Bill. We would not need
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Is not the candid explanation of why the Government do not want to remove the phrase that if they were to do so, it would be possible for any group to go to the High Court for judicial review and say that a particular development was not sustainable development? There would thus be an argument with the courts about a nuclear power station, for example. That is why the Government want the phrase. As I said earlier, they are desperate to ensure that the Bill, when enacted, does not get anywhere near the courts. It has been judicially proofed so that it cannot be challenged.
Mr. Woolas: The hon. Gentleman must have been reading the Daily Mail. He is inculcated with cynicism. We included the provision in response to the other place, not out of fear of judicial action. I was trying to help. Sometimes when we read the Daily Mail, we conclude that we should not have bothered.
The right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal outlined an important position and showed the evolution of his policies and politics. I am not sure that his point is shared by the hon. Members for Vale of York and for Bexhill and Battle, nor do I think that the right hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron) would agree with it because there would be huge consequences. However, I am repeating myself, so I shall now sit down and shut up.
David Maclean: I have listened carefully to the debate and I am not convinced that the Minister has spelled out a good, sound British definition of sustainable development, as I had hoped initially. The hon. Gentlemans heart is in the right place, as is the Governments, but I do not know where their head is. Perhaps the cause is my thick head. I do not understand fully what the hon. Gentleman was attempting to say and I am not sure that has he cut through the confusion of the plethora of definitions of sustainable development that exist throughout the world.
The Gro Harlem Brundtland Commission was a good starting point. When we were in Rio, the definition,
Development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs
was quoted about 10 times a day. It is simple and straightforward, but applying it to every aspect of business and industrial development, agriculture, farming, mining, quarrying, building and our lifestyle, and then to the lifestyle of other countries with completely different economic systems, takes us into severe trouble.
I do not want to prolong the debate. I want the phrase to stay in the Bill, so of course I shall not press the amendment to a Division. I will conclude by trying to shed some light on the Home Office windows and HFCs. I did not intervene in the debateit might have been regarded as facetiousbut I spent four years in the old building, where we were not allowed to open the windows because the top half was heavier than the bottom half. They were hinged, almost in the middle,
At times, when we are looking at such highly complex subjects, we ought to get back to a bit of simplicity. The concept of sustainable development is simple. It is important. It is something to which Parliament will return again and again, not necessarily in the Bill, but on other occasions. It should stay in the Bill, but I hope that in future the Government will be clearer about what they mean by sustainable development. I beg to ask leave to withdraw my amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 13 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
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