Clause
145
National
Information Governance Board for Health and Social
Care
Anne
Milton:
I beg to move amendment No. 75, in
clause 145, page 96, line 23, leave
out ‘seek to’ and insert ‘make efforts
to’.
I am glad
that I serve some purpose to the Chairman, if nothing more than to
enable him to draw breath. We should all be disappointed if you did not
have opportunities to do so, Mr. Conway.
This is a pedantic little
amendment, but I make no apology for being a pedant. The Minister says
that all will be well because local authorities have a duty to work
together, but things are not always so simple; sometimes words matter.
The amendment would
replace “seek to improve” with “make efforts
to”. I am not a lawyer, like my hon. Friend the Member for
Eddisbury, and so am not so familiar with legislation, but I think that
wording makes a difference. I should like there to be more emphasis on
the board improving “the
practice followed by relevant bodies in relation to the processing of
relevant
information.”
If
the Minister shares my pedantry, perhaps he will agree to the
amendment. I do not think that he has agreed to any amendments during
this Committee. The change we propose is a small one, and we certainly
would not throw it in his face if he agreed to it. We would keep it a
secret and not tell a soul.
Mr.
O'Brien:
My hon. Friend’s amendment is more
important than she thinks. Without being too legalistic, as opposed to
pedantic, I think that the point of moving from “seek to”
to “make efforts to” is that her form would have
something against which one would hope to be able to show that efforts
have been made and therefore possibly have something to hold to
account.
Anne
Milton:
I thank my hon. Friend, who reinforces my belief
that it is important for this place to contain a variety of talents,
such as his legal expertise. He is right; it is important that
organisations created in legislation can be held to account for their
actions. The words “make efforts to” would make a small
difference to
that.
Mr.
Bradshaw:
Although we have not accepted any amendments, I
have indicated in at least two cases that we intend to address the
concerns raised at a later stage. I am not trying to be difficult, but
we simply do not think that the amendment would add anything.
I am pleased that the
Conservatives agree with our plans to establish a national information
governance board for health and social care. We believe that the vigour
with which the board will approach its functions will be down to the
drive and enthusiasm of its chair, members and officers, rather than
the nuance of the words in the Bill. Although I cannot accept the
amendment, I reassure the hon. Lady that we shall do all we can to find
a chair, members and officers who are passionate about information
governance practice and capable of delivering the aims that we all
share.
Anne
Milton:
I thank the Minister. Of course I am disappointed
that he did not feel our amendment would add anything to the Bill, but
I thank him for considering some of the points that have been made
previously in the Committee. I hope that he takes on board some of the
comments made today—I am sure he will. I beg to ask leave to
withdraw the
amendment.
Amendment,
by leave,
withdrawn.
Clause
145 ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Clause
146
Duty
to consult Board in relation to regulations about patient
information
Question
proposed,
That the clause stand part of the
Bill.
Anne
Milton:
My only point on this clause—the same point
has come up before—is that although abolishing existing bodies
and establishing others often makes a great deal of sense, it is
terribly important that absolute clarity of roles is established. That
is particularly true in relation to matters addressed by the Health
Protection Agency. I refer back to my comments about the Local
Government Association not being clear about its functions in emergency
situations. I reiterate that when there are measures to be used only in
an emergency, such as those that the new body will deal with, it is
even more important that guidance is clear and the bodies and boards
involved are absolutely au fait with
procedures.
Question
put and agreed
to.
Clause 146
ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Clauses
147 and 148 ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Schedule
14 agreed
to.
Clause 149
ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Clause
150
Orders
and regulations: Parliamentary
control
Question
proposed,
That the clause stand part of the
Bill.
Mr.
O'Brien:
We have moved to the general part of the Bill,
part 6. Our amendment No. 66 relates to this clause, and I believe that
I said I may wish to press it to a Division. In my point of order in
the Committee’s fourth sitting, I pointed out that we were made
aware of the memorandum on delegated legislation only the day before
our sittings began. The Minister kindly apologised, ascribing the error
to a new Library rule. Officials have now succeeded in depositing the
paper, and I am pleased to confirm that it is numbered DEP2008-0077. I
am of course happy with that explanation, and I should be grateful if
the Minister would continue to ensure that his Department and the
Government give hon. Members plenty of time to study the Bills that
they sponsor, particularly those involving complicated
memoranda.
I am
conscious that amendment No. 66 would mean that all regulations would
need to be confirmed by the affirmative resolution. I am equally sure
that I would press it to a Division only to hold the
Government’s feet to the fire, as it were, as I have said on
rare occasions before, so that they go away and think about the
measure. Quite fairly, the Minister has just said that he promises to
think about some of the issues that we have raised in amendments. Even
if they were not made, they have spurred the possibility of some
refinement of the Bill’s drafting, and we may well look forward
to some changes on
Report.
We will have to focus on that
next week because, with the recess on the way, the timetable is such
that we will have to table our amendments for Report in the next few
days to ensure that we are ready to deal with that stage of the Bill on
the first day following the recess. At least, that is what I have been
informed. If that proves to be the case, we will have a busy time even
in the recess.
I hope that the Minister will
look carefully at our arguments. It is important, particularly with
this Bill, given that we are dealing with so many entitlements and
rights of people who are often in a vulnerable position, and because we
are seeking positively to promote itemised and tailored individual
public health issues, that we consider using the affirmative resolution
procedure.
Amendment
No. 260 is coming up on clause 158, so I am trying to work out in my
own mind the best way to ensure that the earnestness of our intent is
well recorded in the Committee
proceedings.
The
Chairman:
Before the Minister responds, if he intends to
do so, I can help the hon. Gentleman. Normally, when amendments are
debated in a group, it is important that whoever moves the amendment
indicates to the Chair or to the Clerks if they wish to press the
amendments to a Division. Otherwise, the group is not specifically put
at a later point in the proceedings. With that in mind, if the hon.
Gentleman wanted to press to a Division, it would have to be on clause
stand part, rather than on an amendment which the Committee has already
considered. To avoid that happening with any future amendments that
come up in future clauses, the hon. Gentleman or other hon. Member
should indicate that they wish to press to a Division. I am sure that
we could accommodate
them.
Mr.
O'Brien:
By way of reply, I shall be straight by saying
that I cannot recall whether I flagged the fact that I wanted to
reserve a position to press amendment No. 66 in clause 150 to a
Division. My instinct tells me that I probably did not. However, I did
reserve the right to press amendment No. 260 in clause 158 to a
Division. I suspect that, for the purposes that I am driving at, I
shall have to rely on that
reservation.
The
Chairman:
The hon. Gentleman’s recollections are
absolutely right, so we shall be able to accommodate him.
Question put and agreed
to.
Clause 150
ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Clause
151
Orders
and controls: control by National Assembly for
Wales
Question
proposed, That the clause stand part of the
Bill.
Mr.
O'Brien:
The clause deals with the regulations relating to
the National Assembly for Wales. I shall not press to a Division, but I
wish to reinforce how important it is, when we consider how the powers
are transmitted and utilised by Welsh Ministers, that the Government
recognise that those of us who represent English constituencies in
border areas have a grave difficulty in accessing accountability
through Parliament for Welsh matters that affect our constituents.
Notwithstanding the helpful discussion we had earlier, that has been a
running theme and, at many times, a running sore in
legislation since devolution. To a lesser degree, that applies to those
who represent Welsh constituents in the Westminster Parliament in
relation to English matters, such as when my neighbours are treated in
a hospital in my constituency.
With those matters in mind,
there is still this overhanging difficulty about the accountability
through this place and giving our constituents the power to hold to
account the actions of both the Executive and the Administration as
laid out in the clause. It is an appropriate stand part point to make.
I am sure that the Minister already has the point on
board.
Question put
and agreed
to.
Clause
151
ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
3.15
pm
Clause
s
152 and 153
ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Clause
154
Repeals
Question
proposed, That the clause stand part of the
Bill.
Mr.
O'Brien:
Just in case anyone was getting excited about us
galloping away, and if my hon. Friend the Member for Guildford thought
she was being pedantic, well here we go. The important point to note is
that the clause deals with repeals which are listed in schedule 15.
Some 15 Acts passed by the Government over the last nine years will be
repealed or amended. They include the Health Act 1999, the Care
Standards Act 2000, the Health and Social Care Act 2001, the National
Health Service Reform and Health Care Professions Act 2002, the Health
and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Act 2003, the National
Health Service Act 2006, the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006
and the Health Act 2006. So it is clear that the vast majority of those
15 Acts are from this Department’s
watch.
Parliament is
the place to both propose and pass laws, but it is always helpful if
Governments can get it right first time. Most importantly there is a
big question about the almost iterative method by which we are making
law in this area. Our parliamentary predecessors recognised that
ground-breaking law needed a lot of consideration. Of course that was
in the days when Bills were not programmed, so they would get full and
detailed consideration. I have never been in favour of the new hours of
this House and I think we should work through the night when we need
to. That would give us plenty of time to discuss everything in detail.
This is a good example of where truncated parliamentary scrutiny and
iterative law making have ended up with a rather shabby list of Acts
that have to be repealed. I am sorry to see that, but it is worth
placing on the record because it is a reflection of where we have got
to in the legislative procedures, which the House has decided, in its
wisdom, to
sanction.
Question
put and agreed
to.
Clause
154
ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Schedule
15
Repeals
and
revocations
Amendment
s
made: No. 193, in schedule 15, page 177, line 24, column 2, at end
insert—
‘In
section 19(4)(b) the word “and” at the
end.
In section 21(5)(b) the
word “or” at the
end.
In section 30A(2)(b) the
word “or” at the
end.’.
No. 194,
in schedule 15, page 177, line 28, column 2, at end
insert—
‘Section
120(1).’.—[Mr.
Bradshaw.]
Mr.
O'Brien:
On a point of order, Mr. Conway. It
may be completely my confusion, but I cannot find these amendments on
the selection
list.
The
Chairman:
If it would help the Committee, the Chair and
the Clerks have to work from the amendment paper. I realise that this
gets very confusing for people, including the Chair, but the other
piece of paper lists the amendments that have been grouped for
debate.
Mr.
O'Brien:
So those amendments have been brought forward
from the past? We have already debated
them.
The
Chairman:
I shall take advice. From the Clerk’s
paper I can see that those were debated with the groupings with
amendments Nos. 153 and 95. The amendments have been debated, but not
formally moved, which has to be in the order that they appear in the
Bill.
Mr.
O'Brien:
I am grateful. I thought we had dealt with them.
I could not work out why I had not prepared myself. I did not know
whether I should be standing or
not.
The
Chairman:
It is not marked on my paper, but fortunately
the Clerks have it on theirs. They have a firm grip on such
matters.
Amendments made: No.
155, in schedule 15, page 177, line 50, column 2, at end
insert—
|
‘Health
Act 2006
(c. 28)
|
In
section 61, the words “the Commission for Healthcare Audit and
Inspection or”.
In
Schedule 5—
(a) the
entry for the Commission for Healthcare Audit and Inspection, and (b)
the entry for the Commission for Social Care
Inspection.’.
|
No.
120, in
schedule 15, page 178, line 7, at
end
insert—
‘Section
38(3)(a)(ii).’.
No.
121, in
schedule 15, page 179, line 31, after
‘5A(1)(a)(ii)’ insert—
‘, (3) and
(3A)’.
No. 245,
in
schedule 15, page 180, line 37, column
2, at end
insert—
|
‘In
section 5(3), the words “or rating
districts”.’
|
No.
246, in schedule 15, page 181, line 18, column 2, after
‘disease,”’ insert ‘“rating
district,”’.—[Mr.
Bradshaw.]
Schedule
1
5, as amended,
agreed
to.
| 
