Clause
110
Power
of national authority to require information from charging
authorities
Question
proposed, That the clause stand part of the
Bill.
Stephen
Hammond:
I want briefly to probe the Minister on this
clause. It is to do with the transfer of information between Government
and local authorities and I see nothing wrong with those
powers.
The Secretary of State is allowed
to charge local authorities a fee for disclosing information to them
but local authorities do not have the same luxury of being able to
charge a fee, so it is a one-way power. Given that the disclosure of
information is bilateral, will the Minister confirm that I have read
the clause correctly and say whether she would consider giving local
authorities the ability to charge a fee as
well?
Ms
Winterton:
The clause will allow the Secretary of State in
England and Welsh Ministers in respect of the scheme in Wales to
request information about a charging scheme or a proposed scheme from
the authority developing it.
As the Government are removing
the Secretary of State’s approval role, we still want to ensure
that central Government have appropriate access to information about
local authorities’ use of their road-user charging powers. We
are already working with authorities that are developing proposals for
road pricing and we hope that that relationship will continue. However,
it may be necessary for the appropriate national authority to request
information beyond what is made available informally. This provision
states clearly that the information should be that which the authority
already has or can reasonably be expected to acquire. Therefore, we
think that this should impose no extra cost on a properly run scheme.
The Government’s intention is to be able to access information
about how a scheme works, to ensure, for example, interoperability of
systems and technology or to understand the effectiveness of different
approaches.
With
regard to the ability of the Secretary of State to charge a reasonable
fee for supplying information, the main reason for including this in
the Bill is so that the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency can recover
its costs in supplying information that charging authorities will need
to enforce their schemes. That is an ongoing operational cost and we
have made it very clear that any charge would cover only the costs of
supplying the information.
Question put and agreed
to.
Clause 110
ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause
s
11
1
to 114
ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Schedule
6
agreed to.
Clause
115
Powers
of the National Assembly for
Wales
Question
proposed, That the clause stand part of the
Bill.
Stephen
Hammond:
We now move into another part of the Bill,
concerning miscellaneous provisions. First is the trunk road charging
scheme in Wales.
At
the moment, Welsh Ministers exercise functions in relation to strategic
Welsh management and they have the power to levy charges on trunk roads
only to support local road pricing schemes. However, clause 115 goes
well beyond that, with a huge extension of the powers. If I read this
clause correctly, which I think I do, it gives Welsh Ministers
tax-raising powers in Wales for the first time, as it allows them to
implement a Wales-wide scheme on all trunk roads in the
Principality. That equates to a huge tax increase on Welsh citizens. It
is a constitutional matter and should not be introduced through the
back door of a Bill on local transport. It is inconsistent with the
rest of the Bill as it applies to other parts of the country. The
potential effect on the Welsh economy is huge, if tax-raising powers
are to be granted to Welsh Ministers that they did not have
before.
Mrs.
Siân C. James (Swansea, East) (Lab): The hon.
Gentleman mentioned tax-raising powers. It is important to point out at
this juncture that the clause does not give tax-raising powers, which
will remain very firmly here at Westminster. What it will be is an
opportunity to put money raised on road pricing back into the local
infrastructure. We heard earlier from my hon. Friend the Member for
Sheffield, Hillsborough about concerns the chambers of commerce had in
Sheffield. Similarly, in Cardiff, there are some serious concerns about
traffic congestion and surely there must be local solutions for local
problems.
Stephen
Hammond:
Absolutely, but the trouble is that I am going to
disagree with the hon. Lady. She is wrong in her initial premise. I am
certainly happy with her latter premises about local charging for local
schemes, and that the money raised from a Wales-wide trunk road
charging scheme could be used for Wales-wide schemes. My understanding
of the Bill, and that of many Members of the Welsh Assembly, is that
allowing charges to be made on a Wales-wide basis effectively gives the
Welsh Assembly tax-raising powers. These are not tax-raising powers
they have had before, and therefore this is a constitutional
matter.
I suspect that
the Government’s response will centre on the fact that the
provision has been included at the request of Welsh Ministers, and that
those Welsh Ministers have not yet decided where or how they are going
to use the additional powers. It may well have originated from Welsh
Ministers. I am not sure, therefore, why it has come to us as a
framework power in primary legislation, as opposed to a legislative
competence order. It is my understanding that when the Welsh Assembly
desires a specific matter to be added to its legislative competency,
the legislative competence order is the customary route. The Secretary
of State would lay a draft order in Parliament that would require the
approval of both Houses. That is, again, a different procedure from
what we are being given here. If one looks at this clause, it is clear
that there was a long discussion, much more erudite than any I can
offer
here—
Ms
Winterton:
Surely
not.
4.15
pm
Stephen
Hammond:
I thank the Minister for her confidence in my
erudition. No one who has read the proceedings of the Bill’s
passage through another place could be anything other than convinced
that this is a constitutional matter. It gives the Welsh Assembly, for
the first time, the power to raise tax. On that basis and that basis
alone—not on the basis that Welsh Ministers should not have the
ability to reinvest in local schemes
but on the basis that this is a constitutional matter, that it is the
first time that tax-raising powers are being given to the Welsh
Assembly, and that they are being given through the back door of the
Local Transport Bill—I cannot support this clause and I will ask
my hon. Friends not to do
so.
Mr.
Knight:
I support my hon. Friend. I am surprised that
people have not taken to the streets in Wales in opposition to this
particular provision. Maybe they are not yet aware of what is coming,
but I think the fate that befell Councillor Jones in
Manchester—I do not know whether he is Welsh, though he
certainly has a Welsh name—will be affecting Councillors Jones
en masse in Wales if the provision is introduced. In effect, Wales is
being used by the Government as a guinea pig. That is what it amounts
to. Wales is a guinea pig for a potential Britain-wide scheme. What
message does it send to people who live in England but enjoy holidaying
in Wales? The message is, “Don’t come to Wales:
we’ll be taking more tax off you.” Barmouth’s loss
will be Bridlington’s
gain.
Ms
Winterton:
The clause will allow the National Assembly for
Wales to pass its own legislation, in the form of an Assembly Measure,
on road charging on the trunk road network in Wales. The revenues from
any trunk road pricing scheme would have to be used for transport
purposes, for example to fund new transport infrastructure or provide
new services. Clause 115 has been included at the specific request of
the Welsh Ministers. It is consistent with the devolutionary principles
established in the Government of Wales Act 2006, and framework powers
are being conferred on the National Assembly in a number of other areas
of Government policy. The Welsh Ministers have yet to decide what role,
if any, road charging may play in addressing current and future
transport challenges. They do, however, wish to have the powers
available that would allow them to adopt a coherent approach towards
any road-pricing proposals that local authorities in Wales may bring
forward, or any future UK scheme. The Welsh Ministers have also made it
clear that if they were to introduce road pricing, it would be in the
context of new road developments in those areas with the worst
congestion
problems.
Mrs.
James:
Will the Minister confirm that any decision the
Welsh Assembly takes on this matter would be taken only after full
public scrutiny and full examination of the proposals? Given that 95
per cent. of the roads are under local authority jurisdiction in Wales,
will she also confirm that it would only affect the 5 per cent. of the
roads that are trunk
roads?
Ms
Winterton:
My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I
certainly confirm what she has said. As I said before, the clause
simply enables the National Assembly for Wales to pass its own
legislation which, of course, would go through all the normal scrutiny.
The Government of Wales Act 2006 does not allow the transfer of
tax-raising powers to the Welsh Assembly. The powers in the clause are
to do with road user charges. As I said, that is in response to a
request from Welsh Ministers, which is entirely in line with the
devolutionary
process.
Stephen
Hammond:
As I predicted a couple of minutes ago, the
Minister told us that the provision was at the request of Welsh
Ministers. Her response at no stage addressed my point that the
provision is giving those Ministers new powers, which they did not have
before. I accept the point made by the hon. Member for Swansea, East
that the proposal would affect only 5 per cent. of the roads in Wales,
but my point is that this is for the first time a tax-raising power
that the Welsh Assembly did not have before. There is any amount of
good legal argument that the measure is giving powers by the back door
that were never intended by the 2006 Act. It is clearly a tax-raising
power. It is clearly a constitutional matter. It should not be in the
Local Transport Bill, so on this particular clause, the Minister and I
will have to
disagree.
Question
put, That the clause stand part of the
Bill:—
The
Committee divided: Ayes 9, Noes
4.
Division
No.
21
]
Smith,
Ms Angela C. (Sheffield,
Hillsborough)
Question
accordingly agreed to.
Clause 115 ordered to stand
part of the
Bill.
Clauses
116 to 118 ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Clause
119
Disclosure
of information relating to foreign-registered
vehicles
Question
proposed, That the clause stand part of the
Bill.
Mr.
Knight:
I want to ask the Minister about the operation of
the provision—its enforcement. We all agree that where a vehicle
is foreign registered, its driver should obey our laws, even if the
laws in the country of origin are different. For example, many German
drivers are used to driving at very high speeds on their autobahns.
Even in France they have a top speed limit of about 80 mph. While they
are over here, at least under the present Government, they ought to
adhere to our limit, which is currently 70
mph.
However, even if
that information is shuffled around, what improvement results from the
enforcement process? That is my concern. Let us say that a driver comes
over to the UK from Cyprus and brings his vehicle with him. He exceeds
the speed limit and the vehicle is photographed by a number of speed
cameras. He parks in parking bays and does not put money in parking
meters. He receives ticket after ticket. When he leaves this country,
taking his vehicle with him, how will those ticketable offences be
pursued?
Ms
Winterton:
The clause was inserted because, during our
consultation process leading up to the Bill, we received a number of
representations from public authorities pressing the Government to
allow them to receive information about the owners and keepers of
foreign-registered vehicles. Many councils, especially those in London,
have significant problems with foreign-registered vehicles committing
parking, congestion charge and other traffic offences. The clause will
allow local authorities, Transport for London, the police and others to
seek and receive information from the Secretary of State to enable
penalty notices to be issued to keepers of foreign-registered
vehicles.
It is right
to say that, although the provision will let local councils and others
obtain information about foreign-registered vehicles and send a penalty
charge notice, it does not guarantee that such data can be obtained in
all instances, nor does it guarantee payment from evaders driving
foreign-registered vehicles. However, the experience of Transport for
London shows that, of cases where it is possible to obtain information
about foreign-registered vehicles, 38 per cent. of outstanding charges
are collected. It is not the answer to all the problems, as the right
hon. Member for East Yorkshire has probably spotted, but it is at least
a step along the way. We have drafted such a measure in response to
requests from several public bodies that would find it extremely
useful.
Question put
and agreed
to.
Clause 119
ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Clauses
120 and 121 ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Schedule 7
agreed
to.
Clauses 122
and 123 ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
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