New
Clause
12
Severn
Bridge Tolls (non-cash
payment)
‘(1) The Severn
Bridge Regulations 1993 (SI 1595) are amended as
follows.
(2) In sub-paragraph
5(1), after “cash” insert “, or by debit or credit
card” and after “coins” insert “, debit or
credit card”.’.—[Stephen
Hammond.]
Brought
up, and read the First
time.
Stephen
Hammond:
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second
time.
We live in an age
where people carry less and less cash around with them. That is
obviously due in part to disposable incomes falling owing to the
Government’s huge tax increases. It is also true because we live
an age of chip and pin, so people are becoming increasingly reliant on
debit and credit cards. We can often use those cards throughout our
constituencies in the smallest of corner shops, yet does it not seem
extraordinary that it is not possible for that payment method to be
used for tolls on either of the Severn bridges, the gateway to Wales?
This is a marvel of British engineering and it seems a shame that chip
and pin technology and payment by credit card cannot be used.
Mr. Andrew
Davies, the Assembly Member for South Wales Central, found that a
particular problem when one of his constituents wrote to him saying
that he had come across the Severn bridge only to be told to go back to
Bristol to get some cash. At that point he wrote to Severn River
Crossing plc and was
told:
“I can
advise that the Severn Bridges Act 1992 governs the current Tolling
Operation of both Severn Crossings. Unfortunately, this legislation
does not allow payment by credit or debit cards at the Toll
Booths.”
That was
confirmed by the Deputy First Minister. That confirmation not only
acknowledged that that Act governs the toll arrangements, but
added:
“You will
know that the legislative responsibility for the Severn Crossings rests
with the Department for Transport’s Government Representative in
England and the Highways Agency
(HA).”
It seems,
therefore, that it is possible for us to make provision that the Severn
bridge be able to use what is common technology everywhere
else.
I
remind the Minister her answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Chesham
and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan) on 24 April this year
said:
“We want it to be as
convenient as possible for people to pay tolls at the Severn
Crossing.”—[Official Report, 28 April 2008; Vol.
475, c. 36W.]
I hope, therefore,
that the Minister will, at the tail end of the Committee, agree that
this is an uncontroversial proposal that would bring the Severn bridge
into the 21st century. Her agreement to it would speed the
Committee’s proceedings.
Mr.
Leech:
I support the new clause, as do Liberal Democrat
Members of Parliament from Wales. In this day and age, it seems
ridiculous that people can pay only by cash. The different ways in
which people can pay the M6 toll make it considerably easier to use
that road. On that basis, this is a sensible new
clause.
Mr.
Knight:
I shall be brief. I want to know why we cannot go
all the way with technology on these toll points. For the past decade,
America has had fully automated systems whereby no one is employed at
the toll pay point—people simply throw money into the basket or
swipe a card—yet here in the UK we are still employing people to
sit all day in little booths to take cash off the drivers. Why can we
not just fully automate the toll
points?
5
pm
Ms
Winterton:
That is an important issue. It has been raised
a number of times, particularly at Transport questions in the House.
The hon. Member for Wimbledon is right to say that there are legal
barriers to using credit card payments. There are also practical and
financial issues that we would need to
resolve.
In
November last year, a working group was set up to consider the options
and identify the issues of credit card usage. The group consists of the
Highways Agency, Severn River Crossing plc, the Welsh Assembly
Government and the Government’s representative. We hope to hear
its findings and recommendations in early autumn. I feel that it would
be inappropriate to pre-empt the group’s findings by changing
the legislation now, but I assure the Committee that after the group
presents its recommendations, we will certainly consider its findings
and take any appropriate action. I hope that I have persuaded the hon.
Gentleman to withdraw the new clause.
Stephen
Hammond:
I am grateful to the Minister for those words of
reassurance. I hope that she will take away from our brief debate the
idea that it could be speeded up, and that she might be able to bring
something forward that we can put into the Bill on Report. Accepting
her reassurances that the processes are under way and asking her and
her officials to think carefully about whether we might put it in on
Report, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the
motion.
Motion and
clause, by leave,
withdrawn.
Amendment
made: No. 292, in title, line 8, after
‘roads;’ insert
‘to amend Part 6 of the Traffic
Management Act 2004;’.— [Ms Rosie
Winterton.]
Ordered,
That certain written evidence
already reported to the House be appended to the proceedings of the
Committee.—[Ms Rosie
Winterton.]
Question
proposed, That the Chairman do report the Bill, as amended, to the
House.
Ms
Winterton:
I am sure that the Committee will be glad to
know that I am not rising to oppose the motion. I want to extend my
profuse thanks to you, Lady Winterton, and to Mr.
Taylor, for the inspiring way in which you have presided over our
proceedings. I am sure that all Committee members endorse those
thanks.
I am grateful
to all Committee members from all parties for our lively debate and
discussion over the past few weeks. The quality of the debate has been
a clear reflection of the quality of the Committee and the level of
interest in the Bill. We have not always been in agreement, but there
has been a great deal of interest in the Bill from both sides of the
House, as well as in forensic scrutiny of all the clauses. We have been
able to do that; in fact, we have had to go further than the time
allocated for the Bill. I am very grateful to the usual channels,
particularly my hon. Friend the Member for St. Helens, North, for his
important contribution in driving us through our discussions.
I thank the Clerks to the
Committee, as well as the Hansard writers, who have done an
excellent job in assisting us in our deliberations. I thank in
particular my officials from the Department for Transport. I hope that
members of the Committee will agree that they have been very open to
discussing the Bill and have been as helpful as they
can.
It has been an
honour and a privilege to serve on the Committee under your
chairmanship, Lady Winterton, and that of Mr.
Taylor, and I am very grateful for all the support that we have been
given.
Stephen
Hammond:
Like the Minister, I thank you, Lady Winterton,
and Mr. Taylor for the way you have guided us
through our proceedings over the 10 sittings. I also thank the Clerks
and the Hansard reporters. I give special thanks to my
colleagues, who have provided help and advice: my right hon. Friend the
Member for East Yorkshire and my hon. Friends the Members for Rugby and
Kenilworth, for Harwich and for Ilford, North. The Minister was right
to say that this Committee has shown great interest in the Bill. I am
grateful to Government Members for listening to my arguments—I
know that they rarely agreed with them. The Minister was right to say
that we have had interesting and excellent
discussions.
I also
place on the record my thanks to the Minister’s officials. She
very kindly offered the Opposition the chance to have briefings and to
clarify issues before bringing them to the Committee. I am grateful to
her for that. I also thank her for allowing her officials to speak to
me. That was a great
help.
I am grateful to
the Confederation of Passenger Transport UK and to the Campaign for
Better Transport, which helped me to frame about four of the 150
amendments that I tabled. More particularly, I place on the record my
thanks to my researcher, Mr. Carlton Jones, who
helped me with the other
140 or so amendments that we tabled. As the Minister said, we
have had a chance to investigate the Bill in some depth. Clearly, there
were issues about timetabling, but through the good offices of the
usual channels, we have had the chance to deliberate in Committee for
longer than was originally scheduled. I think that the Bill, as it
proceeds to Report, is better for our
scrutiny.
Mr.
Leech:
I add my thanks to you, Lady Winterton, and to
Mr. Taylor for presiding over the Committee
during the 10 sittings. The debates have been interesting and
good-humoured, and I pay tribute to the Minister for listening to
discussions on a number of amendments and to contributions from hon.
Members on both sides of the Committee. There is still some work to be
done on the Local Transport Bill. On a number of occasions, there have
been disagreements between the two sides of the Committee, between the
Opposition parties or between some of the Opposition parties and the
Government. I look forward to further debate on
Report.
Mr.
Knight:
I associate myself with the remarks concerning our
Chairmen, both of whom have been excellent. I would like to add one
further point. Opposition Members are sorry to hear that the
Minister is suffering with her throat. Clearly, she needs some fun and
sunshine, so I invite her to come and spend some time in
Bridlington—provided that she does not use the Humber bridge,
she can currently arrive there without having to pay any road tolls or
charges.
The
Chairman:
Before I put the final question, I would like,
on behalf of my co-Chairman, David Taylor, and myself, to thank the
Minister, the Front-Bench spokesmen and other hon. Members for their
kind remarks. This has been a very interesting Bill. At times, the
Committee has had its foot on the accelerator; at times, it has gone
rather slowly in congested areas. It has also taken a few detours, but
we have reached the end of our journey and the end of the Committee
stage and I congratulate all those who have taken part on conducting
themselves in the best traditions of the House of
Commons.
In particular,
I thank the Clerks Department and especially our own Clerk, who has
guided me so skilfully through various pitfalls; the Hansard
writers, who always make us sound much better than we actually are;
and of course the police, who have ensured that the proceedings have
been conducted without
interruption.
Question
put and agreed
to.
Bill, as
amended, to be
reported.
Committee
rose at ten minutes past Five
o’clock.
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