Danny Alexander: I beg to move amendment No. 80, in clause 5, page 3, line 33, leave out subsection (6) and insert
The automatic re-enrolment date shall be 1st April of each year.
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 15, in clause 5, page 3, line 34, leave out from that to end of line 35 and insert
fall at the beginning of the tax year in any relevant year for all jobholders..
Danny Alexander: I look forward to the first contribution of the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to the Committee, in response to the amendments in the clause. I do not know whether he is good cop to the Ministers bad cop, or maybe it is the other way around. We shall see.
The clause deals with automatic re-enrolment. It makes a great deal of sense to ensure that there is a regular opportunity for people who opt out to reconsider their position to be automatically re-enrolled. The amendment is fairly simple, so I do not intend to dwell on it for a great length of time. It is to try to establish that the timing of automatic re-enrolments be of maximum convenience to the employer, for reasons of administrative efficiency that we have been discussing previously. I think that that is also the purpose of amendment No. 15 tabled by the Conservatives. I note, for example, that the Engineering Employers Federation suggests that it hopes that that will include allowing employers to undertake the process on a fixed date, such as the start of the tax year.
Amendment No. 80 gives 1 April, the start of the tax year, as the suggested date, rather than the anniversary date of when the individual chose not to be auto-enrolled. If it was on that anniversary, automatic re-enrolments could go on in large companies almost every day of the year. One would wish to avoid that, in the interests of administrative efficiency. Whether the Government choose to accept the amendment or not, I hope that the Minister will accept the principle that automatic re-enrolment should fall on a specific date, perhaps every year, and that choosing a date, for example at the start of the tax year, that fits in with other changes that employers might be making in tax and salary rises would minimise the administrative burdens on employers. That would make the automatic re-enrolment process easier and, of course, more likely to go without a hitch.
Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): To clarify a point, is the hon. Gentleman saying that the individual enrolment day he is proposing could be different for every company, and that it would be a date that would suit, let us say, the financial calendar of an individual company?
Danny Alexander: It is good to hear from the hon. Gentleman who, as has been said before and as he made clear in the evidence sessions, is very knowledgeable about matters relating to small businesses. I would take his advice on that point.
Clearly some businesses operate tax years on a different basis, so the approach set down in the Conservative amendment might be preferable to the fixed calendar date in amendment No. 80. The point that I am trying to establish is that there should be a fixed date every year, two years or whatever, when automatic re-enrolment takes place at a date that is most convenient to the company. The start of the tax year would seem an obvious date. That is the simple point that I am trying to make. I do not think that I need to dwell on it .
Andrew Selous: I agree with the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey that our amendment No. 15 is similar to amendment No. 80. He said that his amendment was inspired by the Engineering Employers Federation. Ours has also been in part inspired by what it had to say. I note that the recommendation of the Work and Pensions Committee to the Government was that they should adopt this recommendation that re-enrolment should take place for all employees en masse at the end of the tax year in order to reduce the administrative burden on employers.
I am pleased to note that the Government in their response to the report said at paragraph 130:
We have been working closely with employers and their representative organisations to design a scheme that minimises the burdens on business.
I am sure we are all keen to support that. At the moment, employers would have to track the start date and 22nd birthday of all their employees at three year points from all those dates. Instead of having all the dates flagged up on a computer, with letters going out
Again, I make no apology for repeating that we are bringing the world of pensions and contributions to some very small businesses. The Minister mentioned a garage earlier. Think of the small hairdresser or the very small sandwich bar with one or two employees. Those are not organisations that have large personnel and compliance departments that can make sure that this is done easily. If the Minister does not like amendments Nos. 15 or 80, I hope he will have something pretty convincing to say to the Committee about how he will make this work simply and effectively and with the least hassle.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr. James Plaskitt): It is now my turn, Sir Nicholas, to say how nice it is to serve under your chairmanship and to deal with the amendments that have been tabled on clause 5. I am grateful to the hon. Members for moving them in the way that they have. We have already established that there is strong support across the whole Committee for the concept of automatic enrolment. I hope it therefore follows that there is equally strong support for the principle of automatic re-enrolment. The issue is about the timing and the way in which we can minimise the burdens for employers in carrying out this equally important part of the process we are establishing here.
There will, of course, be perfectly reasonable reasons why some employees might wish to opt out. But it is therefore important that a prompt is also built into the system that gives them once again the chance to consider whether they should be back in the system. The best way of doing that is by having an automatic re-enrolment process at a suitable interval. That is why these clauses include provisions that enable the Government to require the periodic re-enrolment of job holders who are not participating in a qualifying pension schemea timely reminder, through the process of re-enrolment, could make all the difference for some employees. Without that facility, they might not again consider revisiting the decision that they have made.
We are conscious of the burdens that re-enrolment places on employers and on schemes. That is why we decided that re-enrolment should happen not more frequently than once every three years and why we placed that safeguard in the Bill. Support for that stance came during our evidence sessions from the consumers, represented by Which? and from employers, represented by the CBI. They both endorsed strongly the three year re-enrolment period.
The amendments would establish a link between the re-enrolment date and the beginning of the tax year. Amendment No. 15 would do that every time the enrolment is triggered. Amendment No. 80 would establish re-enrolment on the same basis, but trigger it every year. Having re-enrolment every year could triple the employer burden compared with our proposal if people who have persistently chosen not to save still choose not to save and opt out 12 months later. Instead of a three yearly peak in activity, the peak would be annual.
We hope that people will stay with pension saving, but there is a balance to be struck between periodic re-enrolment when a persons circumstances might have changed and virtual harassment. Re-enrolling job holders every year would be overdoing it. There is a risk that the message could become so routine for those individuals that it is devalued rather quickly and so more readily dismissed than it would be were it to come up every three years.
I emphasise that we are still considering the implementation of re-enrolment and the process by which it will occur. As the hon. Members who have spoken on the issue have indicated, we need to strike the right balance between the benefits for job holders and the impact on employers. We need to fully understand the impact of re-enrolment on employers and on schemes. I have therefore asked the personal accounts delivery authority for advice on this issue and on how it would be best implemented. We also need to discuss with other stakeholders how best to introduce the policy so that it minimises the burden on employers and on schemes.
In effect, there is a range of options on the timing of re-enrolment which could be used to smooth its administrative impact over a calendar year, a tax year or some other period. The hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey suggested that one date could be chosen on which all employers must do automatic re-enrolment. A certain logic points towards the tax year, but that might not be the appropriate single date for all employers. Some will have different forms of financial years. My hon. Friend the Member for Ochil and South Perthshire noted that the case for simplicity in respect of some employers might point to one date, but the same simplicity argument might point to another date for another employer. While the principle of one date has a clear attraction, moving from that to saying that it should be the start of the tax year will not necessarily meet the criteria that employers reasonably have in this area.
There is also the option of aligning the three year automatic re-enrolment to the date on which the individual opted out. That would create another set of complexities for many employers. Those with highly automated payroll systems might not find it at all burdensome. They would simply have to log, at the point of the individual opting out, a time three years hence when they will automatically be re-enrolled if they are still with the firm. That would not be so easy for smaller companies, which do not have such sophisticated processes. Those are the reasons why we need to go on discussing the matter as we are committed to doing. However, by tying the process of re-enrolment to the start of the tax year, the amendments would perhaps create a peak in the underpinning administrative activity, which would affect employers and schemes, and incur associated costs.
The Government have already made a public commitment in the consultation response to the White Paper to take account of further analysis and advice from the delivery authority, and to consult with stakeholders and the industry, before we take our final decisions on the actual period of, and mechanism for, automatic re-enrolment. I hope that with those reassurances, hon. Members will be happy to withdraw their amendments.
Danny Alexander: I am grateful to the Minister for that full response. I am pleased that he is attracted at least to the idea of having only one date in the period. There are some attractions to that proposal, so I am pleased that the Minister is consulting business and that he has asked PADA for its advicethat is the right approach.
Andrew Selous: Does the hon. Gentleman agree, as I hope the Minister will, that the scheme needs to be flexible and permissive rather than prescriptive? Having heard the debate, does he agree that amendments Nos. 15 and 80 would not do that job? However, I hope that he will be satisfied like me with a ministerial commitment to come back with another draft following his consultations. We want the scheme to be flexible and permissive, to give maximum flexibility and to reduce burdens on businesses.
Danny Alexander: The characteristics that the hon. Gentleman set down for dealing with the matter are exactly the kind of thing that we are looking for. I believe that it will be dealt with more by regulations than in the Bill, but the Minister spoke about listening to advice from external sources such as business organisations and PADA, so one hopes that we will come to the same conclusion. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Mr. Plaskitt: I beg to move Government amendment No. 119, in clause 5, page 3, line 36, leave out (2) and insert (6).
This is a drafting amendment to correct the construction of the clause. It ensures that the correct reference is in place. In effect, it will simply alter a number, so I hope that it will be agreed to as a technical drafting amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause 5, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Jobholders right to opt in
Mr. O'Brien: I beg to move Government amendment No. 120, in clause 6, page 4, line 6, leave out subsection (4).
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 70, in clause 6, page 4, line 12, at end insert
(5A) The regulations must provide for the notice
(a) to include information about the effect in relation to jobholders of giving notice under this section, and
(b) to be signed by the jobholder.
Government amendment No. 122
Mr. O'Brien: Government amendment No. 120 removes the restriction on jobholders that prevents them from opting in more than once every 12 months. Government
If someone has opted out, that person is entitled to opt back in at some point during the year. However, as the employer need not accede to an opt-in request more than once during the year, the employee can make such requests, but the employer does not have to act upon them more than once. This will work as follows. Once a year, the employer will accept employees opting in and, at that date, will opt in those who have requested to opt in. This is a fairly straightforward process, and the amendments clarify the situation in respect of the way in which employers would be able to operate.
Amendment No. 70 seeks to prescribe the process by which a jobholder is able to trigger an opt-in, and obliges notice to be given in a particular form, signed by the jobholder, with particular information being provided. My reason for opposing this is not that I particularly object to the provision proposed by the amendment, but that I would rather this be done in regulations after we have consulted with the employers organisations and have had a further opportunity to look at how this process will work in detail.
The terms of a particular form are, I think, better dealt with in that way, unless it is a form of great substance, as in the case of the Police Criminal Evidence Act 1984. The way in which a form is laid out may change from time to time, and I think it is much better to deal with it in regulations, rather than trying to put it in the Bill. I have no great objection in principle to what amendment No. 70 seeks to do: I just think these issues are better dealt with elsewhere, and we will come to deal with them in terms of the way in which various forms might be dealt withI think that is in clause 8, Information to be given to jobholders.
Andrew Selous: I am grateful to the Minister for his explanations in relation to Government amendments Nos. 120 and 122. They seem entirely sensible and I understand what the Minister is trying to do with them. I was pleased to hear the Minister say that he was not opposed to the principle of amendment No. 70. Our reason for tabling it is to seek clarity, to help the employer have clear records about who has and has not opted in, and perhaps to prevent any come-back against the employer if, at a later date, the employee says, What is this deduction on my wage slip at the end of the month? I dont remember authorising you to take any more money from me. It is just to give that degree of protection to the employer and have a proper audit trail. That is where we are coming from, but the Minister has said that he is sympathetic to those type of actions and seeks to clarify how that would happen by way of regulation at a later date. With that commitment from him, I do not wish to press amendment No. 70 to a vote.
Amendment agreed to.
Mr. O'Brien: I beg to move amendment No. 121, in clause 6, page 4, line 15, after qualifying insert scheme which is a.
The effect of the amendment would be to ensure that where a personal pension scheme is concerned under the provisions it must meet the definition of a qualifying scheme. With regard to how it would operate, clause 6 effectively extends the benefits of workplace pension savings for job holders on a voluntary opt-in basis. Job holders who opt in under the provision will be enrolled in an automatic enrolment scheme.
Subsection (6) enables the Government to regulate to allow an employer to use a qualifying personal pension scheme in place of an automatic enrolment scheme. That might benefit some employees. Indeed, a number of employees prefer a personal pension scheme for their own reasons. Providing that they are going into a pension scheme, I am content that they go into a personal pension scheme of their choice.
The amendment corrects the drafting for the provision that aligns with clause 3(5) and clause 5(5), which provide for the same in respect of automatic enrolment and automatic re-enrolment. That ensures that where a personal pension scheme is concerned under the provision, it must meet the definition of a qualifying scheme. I hope that hon. Members will be able to accept the amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Amendment made: No. 122, in clause 6, page 4, line 17, at end add
(7) Subsections (8) and (9) apply where a jobholder becomes an active member of an automatic enrolment scheme in pursuance of a notice under this section and, within the period of 12 months beginning with the day on which that notice was given
(a) ceases to be an active member of that scheme, and
(b) gives the employer a further notice under this section.
(8) The further notice does not have effect to require the employer to arrange for the jobholder to become an active member of an automatic enrolment scheme.
(9) But any arrangements the employer makes for the jobholder to become, within that period, an active member of such a scheme must be made in accordance with regulations under this section..[Mr. OBrien.]
Clause 6, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
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