Clause
187
Extent
Amendment
made: No. 159, in clause 187, page 105, line 15, leave out
‘16’ and insert ‘[Gas reception
facilities]’.—[Mr.
Dhanda.]
Clause
187, as amended,
ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Clause
188
Commencement
Amendment
s
made: No. 611, in clause 188, page 106, line 2, after
‘154,’ insert
‘[local
development orders: removal of requirement to implement
policies],’.
No.
612, in clause
188, page 106, line 2, after
‘158,’ insert ‘[Appeals: miscellaneous
amendments]’.
No.
613, in
clause 188, page 106, line 2, leave
out ‘Schedule 3’ and insert ‘Schedules 3 and
[Appeals: miscellaneous amendments]’.—[Mr.
Dhanda.]
Mr.
Dhanda:
I beg to move amendment No. 513, in
clause 188, page 106, line 10, at
end insert—
‘(4A) Section
[Powers of National Assembly for Wales] comes into force at the end of
two months beginning with the day on which this Act is
passed.’.
The
Chairman:
With this it will be convenient to
discuss the following: Government new clause
22— Powers of National Assembly for
Wales
‘In Part 1 of Schedule 5
to the Government of Wales Act 2006 (Assembly measures: matters within
Assembly’s legislative competence), after the heading
“Field 18: town and country planning”
insert—
“Matter
18.1
Provision for and in
connection with—
(a)
plans of the Welsh Ministers in relation to the development and use of
land in Wales, and
(b) removing
requirements for any such
plans.
This does not include
provision about the status to be given to any such plans in connection
with the decision on an application for an order granting development
consent under the Planning Act
2008.
Matter
18.2
Provision for and in
connection with the review by local planning authorities of matters
which may be expected to
affect—
(a) the
development of the authorities’ areas,
or
(b) the planning of the
development of the authorities’
areas.
Matter
18.3
Provision for and in
connection with—
(a)
plans of local planning authorities in relation to the development and
use of land in their areas,
and
(b) removing requirements
for any such plans.
This does
not include provision about the status to be given to any such plans in
connection with the decision on an application for an order granting
development consent under the Planning Act
2008.
Interpretation of this
field
In this
field—
“local
planning authority” in relation to an area
means—
(a) a National
Park authority, in relation to a National Park in
Wales;
(b) a county council in
Wales or a county borough council, in any other
case;
“Wales” has
the meaning given by Schedule 1 to the Interpretation Act
1978.”’.
And
the following amendments thereto: (a), leave out from ‘Matter
18.2’ to ‘Planning Act 2008’, and (b),
leave out from ‘“local planning authority’”
to ‘in any other case;’.
Mr.
Dhanda:
I apologise to members of the Committee for the
delay in tabling the new clause. The framework powers that it contains
have been the subject of detailed negotiations to ensure their scope,
and that their content is right. It did not prove possible to finalise
the new clause as early as we would have liked. The Government of Wales
Act 2006 provides powers for the National Assembly for Wales to pass
legislation known as Assembly Measures. In relation to matters set out
in schedule 5 to the 2006 Act and in line with the principles of the
devolution settlement, new clause 22 inserts three new matters into the
town and country planning field in
schedule 5. That will allow the Assembly to make its own legislation in
relation to the plans made by Welsh Ministers and local planning
authorities on the development and use of land in Wales. Those powers
are subject to an exception that prohibits the National Assembly from
making provision about the status of plans in relation to development
consents for nationally significant infrastructure projects.
The Assembly may also pass
measures about the matters that local planning authorities should keep
under review that affect the area’s development. For example, a
measure could prescribe a list of specific matters that authorities
must keep under review, such as population, housing and other key
cross-boundary issues. A memorandum setting out the detail of those
powers has been published alongside the Bill. New clause 22 has been
included at the specific request of Welsh Ministers. The Assembly
Government believe that the power to make their own legislation in
those areas would enable them to respond quickly and positively to the
needs and challenges faced by the Welsh planning system in the
future.
The
development plan system in Wales is distinctive. Each local planning
authority must prepare a single local development plan for its area. In
doing so, it must have regard to a number of things, including the
Wales spatial plan, which is prepared by Welsh Ministers. Proposed new
matter 18.1 would enable the Assembly to change the status of the Wales
spatial plan in relation to local development plans. It would also
enable the Assembly to make provision in relation to the plan’s
content and its preparations and review requirements. The new
development plan system in Wales is in its infancy and no local
planning authority in Wales has yet gone beyond the early stages of
local development plan preparation. As the new system beds in, the
Welsh Assembly Government will consider the plan requirements and any
legislative changes. They will use the framework powers when
appropriate, following consultation and in accordance with Welsh
priorities and time scales—although the times scales are the
same.
Amendment No.
513 is consequential and provides for the powers to come into force two
months after Royal Assent. Amendments (a) and (b) would enable the
National Assembly to legislate only in relation to plans about the
development and use of land in Wales prepared by Welsh Ministers. It
would not be able to legislate for local development plans. The
Assembly Government are responsible for overseeing the operation of the
town and country planning system in Wales, so the effect of the
amendment would be to enable the National Assembly to legislate only in
relation to part of that system. We consider that to be inconsistent
and to risk an incoherent and, as I have said, inconsistent approach
between national and local tiers of plan-making in Wales. That is
clearly not acceptable. Wales has its own distinctive development plan
system that is still in its infancy. It is entirely appropriate for the
National Assembly to have powers to enable it to respond positively to
the needs and challenges faced by the Welsh planning system in the
future. Key stakeholders, including the Welsh Local Government
Association, support these proposals. Therefore, I strongly resist the
amendments.
12.15
pm
Mr.
Jones:
Just as the Minister commenced his speech with an
apology, may I also tender my apology to you, Mr. Illsley,
for raising a sequence of long points of order on the non-production of
this new clause? I know that I have tried your patience, but frankly my
own patience and that of other Committee members was severely tried
when a matter of some constitutional significance was
not tabled until 24 January. Remarkably enough, that was the very same
day that the previous incumbent of Gwydyr house decided to relinquish
his position. I am not sure whether the events were linked, but it was
a happy
coincidence.
This
group is of constitutional significance. It will
grant law-making powers—primary legislative
powers—to the Welsh Assembly. I understand that the powers were
applied for by the Welsh Assembly Government as long ago as last
summer, but the draft clause was not tabled until two weeks ago. It is
clear that even in the early stages of the Committee stage, the
Government were not wholly aware of the nature of the powers that were
sought. I put the issue to the Minister for Local Government very early
on in proceedings when I asked why such important powers did not appear
in the Bill at that stage. He indicated that the powers were for Welsh
Ministers in the areas for which they already have devolved competence.
That is not the case. As we have heard from the Under-Secretary, these
are new legislative powers, not for Welsh Ministers, but for the Welsh
Assembly.
The new
clause will insert three new matters in part 1 of schedule 5 to the
Government of Wales Act 2006. By any standard, the
2006 Act is a remarkably convoluted piece of legislation. It sets up a
framework by which primary legislative powers may be devolved to the
Welsh Assembly, but there is no one route for doing that. At the last
count, there were no fewer than 13 routes by which such powers can be
devolved to the Assembly, although I believe that academics are still
counting. The two most—I hesitate to use the word
popular—common routes appear to be by framework powers, such as
we are considering, and by legislative competence
orders.
It is
instructive to draw a distinction between those two procedures. Under
the legislative competence order procedure there is a considerable
level of scrutiny by the Welsh Assembly and by Parliament. In
Parliament, the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs
conducts evidence sessions and inquires very closely into the reasons
for the application for the legislative powers and the likely effects
of granting such powers. Remarkably, there appears to be a considerably
lower degree of scrutiny for framework powers, such as those that we
are considering. The only scrutiny that I can perceive in Parliament so
far is this sitting of a half-empty Committee for what will probably be
an hour’s
debate.
As a minimum
level of scrutiny, the Government should have contrived for the new
clause to be available for debate by the whole House on Second Reading.
I would suggest that future framework powers should be in the Bill at a
far earlier
stage.
Alun
Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): I would
hate Hansard to report something that is
inaccurate. It seems to me that this is a quite
well-attended Committee and other hon. Members and I are following what
the hon. Gentleman is saying with interest.
Mr.
Jones:
I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman is
following what I am saying with interest, but I can see empty places. I
am sure that he will agree that they are
empty.
The only
evidence that we have seen so far of the need for the
measures that the Welsh Assembly Government appear to want is in a
memorandum prepared by them, which I first saw on 9 January. I do not
know whether other members of the Committee have seen that memorandum,
but it merits reading.
Also, there was an evidence
session with the relevant Welsh Minister in a Committee Room here on
the same date. I understand that only Members
representing Welsh constituencies were invited to that evidence
session, and I dare say that Members from other parts of the United
Kingdom did not receive such an invitation. Notwithstanding the fact
that this Committee had been formed at that stage, I would have thought
that it would have been extremely informative if all its members could
have attended that evidence session. The memorandum that the Minister
has quoted from in part is of some assistance in understanding why the
powers are sought, but frankly it is not of a great deal of
assistance.
Mr.
Llwyd:
I do not know where the hon. Gentleman has been,
but I have a copy of the statement from the Secretary of State for
Wales that explains fully why those powers are required, and I shall
refer to them later to educate some members of the
Committee.
Mr.
Jones:
If the hon. Gentleman cares to look at the
top of the memorandum, he will see that it was
prepared by the Welsh Assembly Government and circularised by the
Secretary of State for Wales.
Mr.
Llwyd:
But it is not the memorandum to which the hon.
Gentleman
referred.
Mr.
Jones:
It is the memorandum to which I am
referring, although I do not know to which memorandum
the hon. Gentleman
refers.
The Welsh
development plan system was set out comprehensively, as the Minister
said, in a recent piece of legislation: part 6 of the Planning and
Compulsory Purchase Act 2004. That includes 19 detailed sections
setting out not only the Welsh spatial plan system, but the local
development plan system, which is unique to Wales and the UK, as he
also said.
Part 6
requires Welsh Minister to produce a national spatial plan for Wales,
to which local authorities must have regard when
preparing their own local development plans. That spatial plan sets out
the policies that Welsh Ministers think appropriate in relation to the
development and use of land in Wales. As the Minister said, the
proposed new matter 18.1 would confer primary legislative competence on
the Welsh Assembly, enabling it to pass measures in relation to the
development and use of land in Wales. I have no violent objection
either to the devolution of legislative competence in that regard or to
Welsh Ministers moving the furniture around with regard to the Welsh
spatial plan through primary legislation. However, I observe that
section 60 of the 2004 Act already contains detailed powers and
obligations for the Welsh Minister to review and revise the plan. Those
are two aspects that Welsh Ministers say that they need to address by
means of primary legislation.
Alun
Michael:
The hon. Gentleman goes on at some length and
appears to be making a bit of a meal out of a biscuit, to be perfectly
honest. If he does not object to the powers that he has just described,
which is an interesting contribution to make, what is his point,
because the responsibility for preparing the national spatial plan lies
with the Ministers of the Welsh Assembly, and surely what we are
discussing is in relation to what follows from
that?
Mr.
Jones:
I am not entirely sure what the right hon.
Gentleman’s point is. I have just said that I have not objected
to that, but if he had cared to have regard to my amendments, he would
see that they relate to matters 18.2 and 18.3, not
18.1.
Alun
Michael:
The hon. Gentleman, in his uniquely
humourless way, does not see the point. He is
contributing at some length to tell us what he does not object to, but
will he tell us what he does object
to?
Mr.
Jones:
Frankly, it is hard to show much of a sense of
humour when dealing with the dog’s breakfast
that is the Government of Wales Act 2006.
Nevertheless, I shall press on and enlighten the right hon. Gentleman
on my concerns about proposed matters 18.2 and 18.3 of the 2006
Act.
Proposed matter
18.2 will give the Assembly legislative competence
“in connection with the review by
local planning authorities of matters which may be expected to
affect...the development of the authorities’ areas,
or...the planning of the
development”
of such
areas. Proposed matter 18.3 will give the Assembly competence to make
provision in connection with local development plans and the removal
of
“requirements for any
such plans”.
However, the
fact that Welsh Ministers have made an application for primary
legislative competence does not necessarily mean that such competence
should be granted. The right hon. Gentleman thinks that this
is a biscuit of which I am making a meal, but I should remind
him that we are talking about the devolution of primary legislative
powers from Parliament to the
Assembly.
I should also remind the right
hon. Gentleman of what the new Secretary of State for Wales said about
the issue in his speech to the Welsh Grand
Committee:
“I
do not believe for one second that we should be rubber-stamping LCOs or
legislation for devolution, because we would not be doing our job as
Members of this Parliament. We must scrutinise such matters properly
for the purpose of correctness, certainly, but also to establish
whether we think that there is a case to be made for the particular
powers, whatever they might be, to be devolved to the National
Assembly.”—[Official Report, Welsh Grand
Committee, 12 December 2007; c.
27.]
That speech was made before
he was appointed to his new position, but I would not
expect that he has changed his mind since he became the incumbent at
Gwydyr house. To that extent, the Secretary of State and I are in full
agreement, and I hope that all members of the Committee share our view.
My point is that, so far as I can see, no compelling case has been made
for the devolution of primary competence in respect of proposed matters
18.2 and 18.3.
All of the
issues that the Welsh Assembly Government identified in their
memorandum relate to powers that are already devolved to Assembly
Ministers. Given that this is a matter of some significance, I shall
analyse the various powers that Welsh Ministers seek and allow the
Committee to make its mind up on whether they require additional
powers.
The
memorandum indicates that the Welsh Assembly Government are seeking
primary competence in respect of the matters that local planning
authorities must keep under review, being matters that might be
expected to affect the development of their area or the planning of its
development, but section 69 of the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act
2004 already provides for the review of local development
plans.
The memorandum
refers to the content of local development plans—that is,
prescription of what the local development plan must set out—but
section 62(4) of the 2004 Act already
states:
“Regulations
under this section may prescribe the form and content of
the”
LDP.
The memorandum refers to
matters to which local planning authorities are to have regard when
preparing LDPs. Section 62(5) sets those out in great detail, and
includes the
expression,
“such other
matters as the Assembly prescribes”.
It is hard to think of a wider power
residing with the Assembly.
The memorandum refers to the
prescription of provisions relating to sustainability appraisal, but
section 62(6) states explicitly that the
planning
“authority
must...carry out an appraisal of
the”
LDP
and
“prepare a report of
the findings of the appraisal”.
The Assembly
Government are seeking primary powers in respect of the preparation
requirements in relation to LDPs, but section 63 sets out those
requirements in great detail. What additional powers do the Assembly
Government require?
The
memorandum refers to the independent examination of LDPs by persons
appointed by Welsh Ministers, but that is provided for comprehensively
in section 64. The memorandum refers to powers for Welsh Ministers to
intervene in the event that they consider an LDP to be unsatisfactory,
but that is specifically provided for by section 65. The memorandum
refers to the withdrawal, adoption, revocation, review and revision of
LDPs, which sections 66 to 70 of the 2004 Act already provide for
comprehensively and explicitly
.
12.30
pm
The memorandum
refers to the possible revision of part only of an LDP. Section 70(2)
provides that the Assembly may direct the LPA to revise an LDP. It goes
on to refer to powers for the Welsh Ministers to
prepare, revise or approve an LDP if it believes the LPA is failing
properly to carry out the function itself. Those matters are already
specifically and comprehensively provided for in section 71. Finally,
the memorandum refers to powers to make provision in relation to joint
LDPs and
annual monitoring reports. Again, those are
specifically provided for in sections 72 and 76 of the 2004
Act. Why do the
Welsh Assembly Government seek primary law-making powers? Where is the
compelling case made out? Perhaps one clue is that the memorandum
indicates that Welsh Ministers are seeking legislative competence in
respect of the content, status and procedures relating to supplementary
planning guidance issued by local planning authorities. That is the nub
of the application for primary powers made by the Welsh Ministers. They
do not say why they want any such powers.
I understand from the Minister
that the Welsh Local Government Association is supportive, but I have
yet to find a member of that body who is. I believe that what we have
now is an application by Welsh Ministers to hoover up further
legislative competence from this place, to hoover up discretion from
local planning authorities in terms of the preparation of the local
development plan, and to deposit those powers on the desk of Ministers
in Cardiff
bay.
The
Welsh Assembly Government have shown themselves over the years to be
both acquisitive in terms of power and highly centralising. I am
concerned that the powers that they seek under the clause will enable
them to operate in an even more highly interventionist manner as far as
local planning authorities are concerned. I do not believe that it is a
function of this Parliament simply to hand over primary powers to the
Welsh Assembly unless a strong and compelling case has been
made.
Welsh Ministers
have seen the Bill coming up on the horizon and thought it a useful
vehicle for acquiring more powers for the Assembly. They have decided
to do so without any real powers in mind. They have given utterly
spurious reasons as to why those powers should be sought. As I have
illustrated, the powers that they ostensibly seek are already in their
hands under the 2004 Act. If they seek such powers, they will have to
do considerably
better.
Mr.
Llwyd:
The hon. Gentleman referred to hoovering. I have
never heard so much rubbish in all my life. The National Assembly for
Wales is a democratic body to represent the whole of Wales. His party
leader in the National Assembly is very much in favour of these powers.
I do not know whether he has conferred with his colleagues in the
National
Assembly—
Mr.
Jones:
I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the
Conservative party at national level, Welsh Assembly level and at local
government level is fully supportive of the amendments that I seek to
make.
Mr.
Llwyd:
Well, that is news to me and to many members of the
Committee, but there we are. I accept what the hon. Gentleman said. As
a matter of correction, however, he said that the only paperwork about
the clause was the statement that came to us via the Secretary of State
for Wales, from which the hon. Gentleman read exhaustively. There was a
written Cabinet statement on 14 December by Ms Davidson, who attended a
meeting in this place to which all Members who represent Welsh
constituencies were invited. Some of us took the trouble to attend.
[Interruption.] There we are. If the hon. Gentleman attended
too, he misled the Committee earlier.
Mr.
Jones:
If I may remind the hon. Gentleman, I said that
Welsh Members were invited to attend that meeting. I went on to say
that it would have been extremely helpful if members of the Committee,
which had already been established at that stage, had also been
invited.
Mr.
Llwyd:
Very well. My point is that planning is a devolved
matter; it has been devolved to the National Assembly for Wales. If it
is to improve the current planning system it needs these powers. I hear
what the hon. Gentleman says; he was reading verbatim from that
memorandum about the various sections that he says already apply. The
whole point of the exercise is to ensure that Ministers are empowered
to deal with this matter in its entirety in Cardiff rather than having
to come through this place. That is the gist of
it.
Alun
Michael:
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the planning
system is not just devolved but, under the Welsh legislation, different
in a number of material characteristics already? The measures are being
applied to a different system of planning.
Mr.
Llwyd:
Indeed. The right hon. Gentleman speaks with
experience, having been an Executive Member of that body. The planning
system in Wales is different; for example, we lay great emphasis on the
Wales spatial plan and on local development plans. The proposed
change in the law will enable matters, especially those not transacted
in the same manner as in England, to be brought forward without having
to come through the conduit of this
House.
In opening the
debate, the Minister was perhaps too kind to the hon. Member for Clwyd,
West, who tabled wrecking amendments. If amendments (a) and (b) to new
clause 22 were accepted, they would wreck this part of the Bill in its
entirety. In effect, Ministers in Wales would have to attempt to carry
out their responsibilities for planning and the economy with one hand
behind their back. I would find it extraordinary if the Committee were
minded to allow that in any shape or form.
On the gestation period of the
new clause, I, too, was rather concerned that it was late coming
forward, but at least we have it now, along with a memorandum that is
more detailed than that which applies to any other
clause and from which the hon. Member for Clwyd, West has read
exhaustively. There are important reasons to accept new clause 22 and
the Government amendment.
As I have said, planning is
inextricably linked with the economy and if we are serious about
allowing the National Assembly for Wales to do a proper job on behalf
of the people of Wales, it must have the tools. That is exactly what
new clause 22 will provide. I reject utterly
virtually everything that has been said in support of the amendments to
it, (a) and (b). I fully support the new clause and the Government
amendment.
Mr.
Dhanda:
It appears that even a great rugby triumph cannot
unite all Welsh members of this Committee. The hon. Member for Clwyd,
West made an interesting point when he said that he had no violent
objection to the proposal, but the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant
Conwy is right that accepting the
amendments would wreck what we are trying to do. It is entirely
consistent to have a synergy between the Wales spatial plan and the
local development plans and for them to line
up.
Alun
Michael:
In the course of explaining the proposals, will
my hon. Friend kindly tell us whether he believes that the
Conservatives have set their face against the proposition before us, in
the Assembly as well as in this place? The Conservatives in
Cardiff bay want to give the impression of pursuing and
supporting devolution, proper decision making and the rest of it,
whereas there seems to be a more luddite tendency. It is important for
the Committee to know what is going
on.
Mr.
Dhanda:
My right hon. Friend makes a good point. The
Conservatives in Cardiff may well be saying that they want powers to
amend the system governing the spatial strategy and local development
plans and that they want independent examination of that system, but
that is in complete contradiction to the amendments before
us.
Mr.
Jones:
On what basis is the Minister saying that
Conservatives in Cardiff bay are of that
opinion?
The
Chairman:
Order. I was going to let the point go, in the
hope that it would slip away without my needing to intervene. The
Minister is not responsible for what the Conservative
party does in Cardiff bay, or anywhere else for that matter, and he
should return to the provisions before us. We are not debating the
Welsh Assembly.
Mr.
Dhanda:
The hon. Member for Clwyd, West has posed a
question, but we should probably leave it there, rather than get
involved in a debate about it.
I commend Government amendment
No. 513 and new clause 22 to the Committee and urge Opposition Members
not to press amendments (a) and (b) to the
vote.
Mr.
Jones:
It hardly needs saying that I am extremely
dissatisfied with the Minister’s remarks, but I shall not press
my amendments. I shall, however, return to them later.
Amendment agreed
to.
Clause
188
, as amended, ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Clause
189 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
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