Mr.
Djanogly: This is an important point. A month ago the new
provisions of the Companies Act 2006 dealing with conflicts of interest
for directors came into force. The Minister may wish to look at them,
because conceptually, in corporate governance terms, until then it was
a matter for the board to make up its own mind, as he is saying.
Company law has now changed that attitude, and a procedure is now laid
down for dealing with conflicts, which is based on a mixture of
shareholders, the board and the articles. In corporate law, we have
moved away from the position that the Minister is advocating in the
Bill. He may want to look at how corporate life has moved on, because
it has implications for the Bill. We may not end up with exactly the
provisions that have been suggested, but there are procedures that
should be put in place.
Mr.
Wills: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his
constructive and helpful suggestion and, of course, we must always be
prepared to learn from other experience, but, with all due respect,
this is a different area of public life. We cannot, as a Government or
a Committee, seek to micromanage the judgments of the commission on
often very complicated, difficult and important issues, and we do not
want to. Setting out a process for doing that, particularly in relation
to the amendment excluding commissioners, trying to decide whether we
have the whole commission for this or only part of it for that and
creating a two-tier structure would be counter-productive for the
reasons that I have stated. I hope that the Committee will resist the
amendment if it is pressed.
Pete
Wishart: The Minister has been pretty convincing this
morning, but he is on less steady ground in response to this amendment,
and I say that with great respect. We have to have it out there and
accept that there are two classes of commissioner: the standard
commissioners of the Electoral Commission and politically appointed
commissioners. We cannot get away from it—there are two
different types and two different standards. To pretend otherwise is
naive on the Minister’s behalf. The commission itself raised
doubts about
that. We
always have to remember that when something is reported on and when
conclusions are made, it is passed to the police. Those cases and
circumstances may become police investigations, so the charge of
political bias will be open to legal challenge. I am a former musician,
not a lawyer like some of the distinguished people here, but anything
that could be open to a legal challenge on that basis cannot be a good
thing and has to be dealt with. The Minister’s response has not
convinced me. In very difficult situations and circumstances, political
commissioners taking a view on enforcement issues with other political
colleagues is not the way forward. I have great concerns and I shall
press the amendment.
Mr.
Wills: To be clear about the position, theoretically it
is, of course, possible that those nominated commissioners may have to
recuse themselves. I am not ruling it out or saying that they have to
be present at all points in all discussions on sensitive issues. That
is not the case. There may be such eventualities—I cannot
speculate on what they might be now—but it would be wrong to
rule out the theoretical possibility that they may all have to recuse
themselves for the sort of reasons that the hon. Gentleman advanced.
However, do we want to constrain the operation of the commission in the
way that he suggests, given that that may have precisely the opposite
effect to what the Committee, as a whole, wants to achieve with the
Bill with the inclusion of the nominated
commissioners?
Pete
Wishart: That is a helpful intervention, but I would
prefer something that gives that protection and guarantee in the Bill.
I shall press the amendment to the vote.
Question
put, That the amendment be
made:— The
Committee divided: Ayes 3, Noes
9.
Division
No.
2] Question
accordingly negatived.
Question
put, That the clause stand part of the
Bill:— The
Committee divided: Ayes 16, Noes
1.
Division
No.
3] Question
accordingly agreed to.
Clause 5
ordered to stand part of the
Bill. Clause
6 ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Clause
7Political
restrictions on Electoral Commissioners and
staff Question
proposed, That the clause stand part of the
Bill.
David
Howarth: The Electoral Commission has raised a point on
clause 7 that members of the Committee have not really been in a
position to put forward in an amendment, but on which I would like the
Government to put their position on the record. Is it a good idea to
reduce from 10 years to five years the period of restrictions on
political activities for non-political commissioners? The Electoral
Commission’s view seems to be that, although it is not
particularly in favour of political commissioners, if there are to be
political commissioners, there must be a very clear distinction between
the political and non-political ones. I would like the Government to
put on record their reply to the Electoral Commission’s
point.
Mr.
Wills: I beg the Committee’s pardon. I am afraid
that I was leafing through my folder while the hon. Gentleman was
making his point. Will he be very patient with me and repeat
it?
David
Howarth: It is simply the Electoral Commission’s
point about clause 7(1). Political activities for the non-political
commissioners are currently defined as being activities
“within the last
ten
years”, which
the clause would change
to “within
the last five
years”. The
commission has expressed some doubt about that. As I understand it, it
wishes to make a clear distinction between the non-political and
political commissioners, as long as political commissioners are to take
part in its
work.
Mr.
Wills: The changes that we are making are in line with the
views of the Committee on Standards in Public Life that the current
10-year—
The
Chairman: Order. I advise Members that they can leave
their papers in the Committee room with total safety, as it
will be locked until we come back at 4.30 pm, when, I have to confess,
my co-Chairman will be in the Chair. The Minister will have time to
consider the question put, and I know that the hon. Member for Epping
Forest will catch the Chairman’s
eye. It
being One o’clock, The Chairman
adjourned the Committee without Question put, pursuant
to the Standing
Order. Adjourned
till this day at half-past Four
o’clock.
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