Mr.
Wills: May I first clarify matters? When the hon. Member
for Perth and North Perthshire referred to Scotland as a region, is
that how he sees the position?
Pete
Wishart: It is an electoral region for European elections.
That is not my definition, but the definition that has been
given.
Mr.
Wills: I am delighted to have given the hon. Gentleman the
opportunity for
clarification. I
wish to make some general remarks before I deal with the specific
concerns that have been raised. The purpose of the clause is to
substitute a new definition of “local returning officer”
under the European Parliamentary Elections Act 2002, so that the local
returning officers for European parliamentary elections held in
England, Wales and Scotland are returning officers for local authority
elections in those parts of the United Kingdom rather than the
returning officers for the United Kingdom parliamentary
elections. That
change, together with a subsequent change in secondary legislation made
under the 2002 Act, will enable future European parliamentary elections
to be administered on a permanent basis by local authority returning
officers along the lines of local authority areas, which will assist in
the effective administration of European parliamentary elections. I can
confirm to the hon. Member for Epping Forest, who I am sure will be
fascinated by such matters, that such a change was not suggested by the
European Commission, but by election administrators. They welcome the
change because it will ease the complexities in running European
elections and will provide certainty in their planning. The hon. Member
for Argyll and Bute gave a good illustration of
that. In
response to concerns raised by various people, including members of the
Electoral Commission, we cannot be certain at this stage exactly when
the Bill will receive Royal Assent. We certainly cannot be certain that
it will receive it in time for the provision on boundaries to be
implemented for the European elections on 4 June 2009. We have
therefore been exploring other options. After consultation, we decided
to exercise powers under the Representation of the People Act 1983 and
to make an order that will move the date of local government elections
in England in May 2009 to the date of the European elections in June
2009. That order has now been made, after debates in both
Houses. Under
that order, we have made the necessary modifications to the European
Parliamentary Elections Act 2002, and the regulations made under that
Act, to enable the European elections in England 2009 to be
administered on local government boundaries. There are no scheduled
local government elections in May 2009 in Scotland and Wales, nor are
there any powers to refine the definition of “local returning
officer” under secondary legislation so that European elections
in Scotland and Wales are run at a local level by local authority
returning officers. We are exploring with colleagues in Scotland and
Wales whether it may be possible to deal with the issue within the
existing legislative framework, but I assure the Committee that we
shall not commence the clause in 2009 for the European elections.
However, the change will provide certainty on the issue for the future
European parliamentary elections, and I hope that the Committee will
support
it. Question
put and agreed
to. Clause
13 ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
The
Chairman: Before we come to the Government new clauses, I
remind the Committee that we are scheduled to conclude our
deliberations on the Bill at 4 o’clock on Thursday, which leaves
approximately nine hours of further debate, if we work to the normal
hours of a Public Bill Committee. I am entirely impartial, but I feel
from time to time that it is helpful to remind the Committee of the
programme motion and of the timetable. [ Hon.
Members: “Hear, hear.”] I am grateful to hon.
Members for that indication of
support.
New
Clause
17Disposal
of election documents in
Scotland ‘In the 1983
Act— (a) in section 63
(breach of official duty), in subsection (3)(b), the words
“sheriff clerk,” are
omitted; (b) in Schedule 1
(parliamentary elections rules), for rule 58 there is
substituted— “58
(1) This rule modifies rules 55 to 57 in relation to elections in
Scotland. (2) In relation to
such elections— (a) the
documents mentioned in rule
55(1)— (i) are not to be
forwarded by the returning officer as required by that
rule, (ii) instead, are to
remain in the returning officer’s custody (and be endorsed by
the officer as required by that
rule), (b) the references in
rules 56 and 57 to the relevant registration officer are to be read as
references to the returning officer (and rule 55(1A) is to be
disregarded), (c) the reference
in rule 57(1) to the documents to be retained is to be read as a
reference to the documents remaining in the returning officer’s
custody under sub-paragraph
(a)(ii).”’.—[Mr.
Wills.] Brought
up, and read the First
time.
Mr.
Wills: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second
time.
The
Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss
Government amendment No.
127.
Mr.
Wills: I shall be brisk. The purpose of the new clause and
the amendment is to transfer responsibility for storage and provision
of access to UK parliamentary election records and documents in
Scotland, including the marked register, from sheriff clerks to the
parliamentary returning officer. The overall aim of the provision is to
improve access to the documents, particularly for parliamentary
colleagues. After
a Westminster election has been contested in Scotland, election
material, including the marked register, is sent by the constituency
returning officers to a local sheriff clerk for safe keeping. The
sheriff clerk is obliged to make some of the material available for
public inspection and to destroy all the material after a year, unless
otherwise ordered. However, there have been difficulties with the
current arrangements, including around access and the fees to be
charged, and sheriff clerks’ offices do not feel that they are
set up to carry out those functions
effectively. The
change will bring Scotland more into line with the position in England
and Wales, where local authorities, through electoral registration
officers or acting returning officers, are responsible for those
functions by virtue of
the Electoral Administration Act 2006, as well as for existing
arrangements in Scotland for local government and European election
records. The
new provision has the full support of stakeholders in Scotland,
including electoral administrators, political parties and the Electoral
Commission.
Mrs.
Laing: The new clause seems perfectly reasonable, but I
always have to question Ministers when they say, “Such and such
a measure brings Scotland more closely into line with the rest of the
United Kingdom.” As a principle, I do not see why Scotland has
to be brought into line with the rest of the United
Kingdom.
Mr.
Wills: I was not suggesting anything other than that the
people in Scotland have asked us to do this and we are responding to
their
wishes.
Mrs.
Laing: I thank the Minister for that explanation, which I
entirely
accept.
Mr.
Tyrie: That is what they said in
1707.
Mrs.
Laing: If my hon. Friend mentions 1707 in the same
vein, I understand why. I was merely suggesting that sometimes it would
be good if the rest of the United Kingdom came into line with Scotland,
which has an excellent legal system and many other excellent
institutions.
Mr.
Reid: I cannot resist asking the hon. Lady whether she
believes that that should also be the case for local government
electoral
systems.
Mrs.
Laing: I understand why the hon. Gentleman asks the
question, but in that it would not be best for the rest of the United
Kingdom to come into line with Scotland. I was thinking more along the
lines of the excellent Scottish legal system, which is based on
extremely good principles that have lasted many
centuries—
The
Chairman: Order. I am not allowing this debate. Please let
us concentrate on the Government new
clause.
Mrs.
Laing: On the Government new clause, I give way to the
Minister.
Mr.
Wills: I am afraid, Sir Nicholas, that I was about to
divert from the new
clause.
The
Chairman: I am glad you did
not.
Mrs.
Laing: We support the Government new clause, with the
caveat that, as a principle, it is not always right to bring Scotland
into line with the rest of the United Kingdom, just for the sake of it.
I declare an interest and admit a bias, as I am a Scots lawyer. That is
the problem. Having made my small protest on principle, I accept that
this is something that the electoral administrators and others in
Scotland have asked for. It makes perfect sense and we support the new
clause.
Mr.
Reid: I, too, support the new clause. To make a more
streamlined administration, it makes sense that, if a returning officer
is in charge of all aspects of an election, he or she should also be in
charge of what happens to the documents after polling
day. The
Minister referred to problems of access with the sheriff courts and
with fees. I can confirm those, having experienced similar problems.
The new clause, combined with an order passed recently on the fee
structure, will improve the administration. I have one question for
him: is it the Government’s intention to introduce legislation
so that documents are dealt with in the same way after Scottish
Parliament elections?
Pete
Wishart: I very much agree with the new clause.
Historically, the sheriff clerk has looked after the documents because
he was given the task of ensuring that the electoral register was
compiled. There is a good case for saying that that task should be
returned to returning officers and local authority chief executives.
That is what we want in Scotland and it is something I particularly
support.
My question
for the Minister is along the same lines as the question asked by the
hon. Member for Argyll and Bute: what happens to the Scottish
Parliament? As far as I understand it, an amendment would have to be
made to the Scottish Parliament (Elections etc.) Order 2007, so that
the practice could be introduced for the Scottish Parliament as well.
That prompts the question, why is Westminster making these tinkering
amendments to Scottish elections? We have had the Gould report in the
last few months, which addressed the biggest post-war electoral
disaster—
Pete
Wishart: About 147,000 voters were disfranchised. I am
disappointed at the hon. Gentleman’s flippant
remark. Almost
150,000 people were disfranchised during the Scottish Parliament
elections. That suggests to me more than anything that the powers and
responsibilities for arranging Scottish elections should be returned to
the Scottish Parliament, instead of having these little orders coming
through Westminster to ensure that we are up to speed on new electoral
law. I want the Minister to confirm that there will be an opportunity
for local authority chief executives in Scotland to be responsible for
the Scottish Parliament elections, as well as for the Westminster
elections.
Mr.
Tyrie: I have one brief point to make. The Minister will
correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it, we are talking about
the storage of election material—if there is a row, we will have
something to refer to afterwards.
Mr.
Tyrie: And access,
indeed. We
are changing the norm only with respect to Scotland. I do not want to
detain the Committee, but I have thought for a long time about the
access provisions in England and Scotland—we have been
discussing bringing
Scotland into line with the rest of the United Kingdom—and
wondered whether the arrangements that we have for the rest of the
United Kingdom are the right ones. I raise that in the context of what
my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest referred to
earlier—the so-called hanging chads
issue. Will
the Minister consider taking a look at the so-called sunshine
provisions that operate in a number of states in the United States?
Those provisions enable a much higher level of access to information
than is available under most UK law, and they can provide a high level
of reassurance about the integrity of an election result. I do not know
whether that was considered in the Gould report, because I confess that
I have not read anything other than summaries of it, but I suspect that
it may have been alluded to as part of that
advice.
Mr.
Wills: In relation to the points made by the hon. Members
for Argyll and Bute and for Perth and North Perthshire, the intention
is to make similar provision for Scottish Parliament election records
and access through Scottish secondary legislation. I understand that
that is likely to be the Scottish Parliament (Elections etc.) Order
2010. The intention is also to apply revised access provisions as
provided for under sections 42 to 44 of the Electoral Administration
Act
2006. I
will resist the temptation to pursue the other points raised by the
hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire. With great reluctance, I
restrain myself on that, but I am sure that we shall return to the
subject. On
the point made by the hon. Member for Chichester, I am ideologically
disposed towards sunshine and am happy to consider the matter. If I
may, I shall investigate further and write to him, as I think that it
is slightly outside the Committee’s remit, but I am interested
in what he has to
say. Question
put and agreed
to. Clause
read a Second time, and added to the
Bill. 11.45
am
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