Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1-19)
LORD JONES
OF BIRMINGHAM
AND MR
GARETH THOMAS
MP
8 JANUARY 2008
Q1 Chairman: Gentlemen, welcome to this
first evidence session of the Committee of the New Year. It is
actually a game of two halvesnot a rugby or football game
but an evidence session of two halvesstarting with some
general questions about trade issues in general, machinery of
government questions, Doha Round, those kinds of issues, WTO,
and then moving to a second session, after about an hour, on trade
relations with India following up the Committee's report of last
year; so we will change gear roughly halfway through the evidence
session. When I ask witnesses to introduce themselves for the
purpose of the record, I normally am doing it literally for the
purpose of the recordI already knowbut as I ask
you two gentlemen to introduce yourselves I would like you to
explain exactly what it is you do, because I think I understand
it but I am just still a wee bit confused. Exactly what do you
both do?
Lord Jones of Birmingham: Good
morning. Thank you very much for giving us some time. When the
Chancellor became the Prime Minister he asked me to become Minister
of State for Trade and Investment and concentrate solely on the
promotion of trade for the United Kingdom around the worldthat,
by the way, includes companies which people might think are headquartered
in other countries but have significant bases in Britain and how
they use Britain as a platform to trade round the world; so it
is not just what my mum would call a British company, it is also
companies that create a lot of wealth and employment in Britain
although their headquarters are somewhere elseand to also
get round the world and get into the world's media about how Britain
is the location of choice for inward investment and to chair the
government department called UK Trade and Investment, which has
two sponsoring departments: one is the Department for Business
Enterprise and Regulatory Reform and the other is the Foreign
and Commonwealth Office; and I have a desk in the Foreign and
Commonwealth Office and I moved my desk out of BERR and into Kingsgate
House where UKTI is. Unlike other former trade ministers, who
did damn good jobs but could not concentrate on it completely
because they had other briefs as well, or, indeed, had a constituency
to nourish or whatever, my job is solely and exclusively in government
to drive forward this great trading nation and this great place
to do business and to separate out from the trade policy of the
country all of the issues that come out of that which for the
first time was split, and Gareth on my left will no doubt talk
about that and his role. Could I just end by saying that I also
am on the Government front bench in the House of Lords, I take
my responsibilities in the House of Lords very seriously, and
when I am in London, like I did yesterdayI led the debate
on the second reading of the Employment Billif I am here
and I am a minister in one of those two departments and can do
my bit on the Government front bench, I will.
Q2 Chairman: But since Lord Drayson's
departure you must lead for all government policy issues in the
Lords relating to BERR.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: Yes,
because there is not another peer minister there.
Q3 Chairman: But not for the Foreign
Office.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: But
not for the Foreign Office. My colleague Lord Malloch-Brown will
do that, and did so yesterday, but the difference to how it has
been done before my appointment is (1) getting two people to specialise
in two different aspects of trade and (2) from my point of view,
actually to ensure that I set myself a target of one long-haul
visit a month, one short-haul visit a month and one regional visit
round the UK a month. Six months in at the end of the last year
I have done six of each, and you cannot do that if you have other
responsibilities, but when I am in London I also do, and take
it very, very seriously, the House of Lords
Q4 Chairman: So your job is in two
departments, BERR and FCO. Gareth, you have got a foot in two
Lord Jones of Birmingham: Could
I just add one thing, Chairman, because this is brand new? I also
have a link into Ministry of Defence, because from April DESO
is coming across, the deal has been done, the negotiation has
been completed and I have a responsibility for DESO as well (the
new DESO, if you like), and whilst MoD is not a sponsoring department
for me and whilst I do not have a desk there, I do have a working
relationship with Baroness Taylor and also with the Secretary
of State for Defence and especially with some of the guys and
girls in uniform, who are the best salesmen we have got for this
fabulous sector called defence manufacturing.
Q5 Chairman: That is helpful and
that is a whole subject we could explore at some length as well.
Gareth, could you explain to me: you said you have a foot in both
departments and a job of blending the policy together. I think
that is your role.
Mr Thomas: Again, just to supplement
what Digby set out, the Prime Minister has created two Ministers
for Trade, one, as Digby explained, doing the promotion side and
the other concentrating on the trade policy side, which is effectively
the negotiations that Britain has an interest in, be it the world
trade talks, the Doha Round that is underway at the moment, be
it the Economic Partnership Agreement discussions that have been
going on for some time and reached a particular climax just before
Christmas and also the suggested changes to the trade defence
instruments that the Commission has available to it. I think the
other perhaps structural point to make is that I do not think,
until now, there has been any sort of specific Cabinet Committee
looking at trade issues. So Gordon has set that up, which Douglas
Alexander chairs and which both Digby and I can attend, along
with colleagues from a range of other government departments,
and that is designed to set the broad framework for government
policy on trade issues.
Q6 Chairman: So the lead minister
in government for trade policy questions is you?
Mr Thomas: Yes.
Q7 Chairman: But you get authority
for your position from that Cabinet sub-committee, as it were?
Mr Thomas: Sure, and through the
work with both secretaries of state.
Q8 Chairman: So what is the precise
role of the Secretary of State? You say both secretaries of state.
Presumably the Foreign Secretary also has a view, quite often,
in these matters, but Douglas Alexander and John Hutton are the
two key characters here. What is the division of responsibility
between you and them, because it looks quite messy from the outside,
that is all?
Mr Thomas: Sure. I can understand
that concern. I should just say, it is not just the FCO that has
an interest, it will be the Treasury that has an interest, of
course it will be Defra that has an interest, and that is one
of the reasons why I think the Cabinet Sub-committee, is so important,
in that it brings all those interests together. Essentially the
sort of day-to-day divide at secretary of state level is with
Douglas chairing the Cabinet Committee and, therefore, having
that role to make sure all our trade policy concerns are properly
discussed. He will concentrate specifically on those trade policy
issues that have a strong development dimension, and John Hutton
will concentrate on those trade policy issues that have less of
a direct development dimension. There have always been discussions
on trade that have involved many different departments. Before
this set up, along with the Secretary of State for Industry, the
Secretary of State for International Development still had an
interest in trade issues and there is a lot of liaison across
government as to who is talking to who and at what time and a
sharing of agendas, and in a sense I should say that also happens
with the two of us. On occasion I have raised issues in meetings
that I have had that are directly to do with trade promotion aspects,
and Digby, similarly, has raised issues around trade policy questions
again.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: None
of this is in isolation, is it? Members of the Committee, you
know this, but a lot of people take it for granted: we are a very
open market; we are a very open, commercial society; but not all
countries are. I could be in front of a trade minister of another
country, I could be in front of a central bank governor, I could
be in front of a television camera in another country banging
the drum for Britain. Of course, I am wanting our financial services
community, for instance, to invest more, sayIndia is a
very good exampleand they will turn round and say, "That
is fine, but why will not the European Union deal with agricultural
protection?"
Q9 Chairman: Exactly. I do not see
how we can have a minister for trade promotion because policy
questions are always, particularly trade substation questions,
are very important. In the Indian market it is always about policy
questions and the key to better promotion.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: Actually,
it does not happen like that in practice. In practice the job
is very much about really driving and banging the initiative and
giving it time and energy round the would. You know, policy is
a last refuge of a protectionist, and when it comes up we can
work together on it, but, as you know from my CBI days and also
because I am a passionate free trader, I got intimately involved
in the Doha Development Agenda, for instance, when I was at the
CBI. I actually understand trade protectionism and I understand
the countries and why they do it and sometimes why they should
not; so I never approach it in isolation; I actually understand
it. What I would not do is cut across the specialist minister
who is paid by the taxpayer to do itI am not adding value
if I do that; he isbut what I would do is not suddenly
go in a meeting with, say, Kamal Nath in India, I would not go,
"Oh, sorry, that is not my bag." It would be a bit of
mix into that.
Q10 Chairman: Why is the Cabinet
Committee being chaired by the Secretary of State for International
Development rather than the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry?
What is the reason for that decision?
Mr Thomas: I think the Prime Minister
wanted to set up a Cabinet committee. As I say, it is a committee
that we have not had, certainly not in my time in government,
and he wanted to bring all the interests around the table. I think
he recognised the importance of trade to development, the particular
fact that we have got the Doha Development Round under way at
the moment, that Economic Partnership Agreement discussions are
key, but that does not mean that the Secretary of State for Business
and Enterprise does not have an absolutely fundamental and pivotal
role, he does, and he has been very active in all sorts of areas,
including on trade defence, including in terms of discussions
around the Doha Round.
Q11 Chairman: Before we conclude
the Doha Round, when that happy day dawns, would you expect the
Secretary of State for Business and Enterprise to take the chairmanship
of that committee?
Mr Thomas: What the Prime Minister
decides to do in the long-term is, in a way, above my grade. I
think the set-up works well. I do not think there have been any
problems with the way the Committee is operated today. I think
most government departments that I have had contact with appreciate
the fact that they are sat around the table and appreciate the
way the Secretary of State for International Development chairs
those meetings.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: Can
I just add something. I have found in the six months I have been
doing this that we are seen in the world as this free-trading
nation that is a force for good by using trade as a way of raising
living standards and sustainability in many countries, and I know
this is unfashionable in newspapers, but business round the world
is a fabulous agent for getting better education, better healthcare,
better transport. A kid of 16 who has got those three things on
his side is probably a little more likely to be able to solve
his problems. That gives an intimate link between these two initiatives
actually.
Q12 Chairman: I agree with that.
Mr Thomas: Mr Luff, I think the
one obvious other point to perhaps draw your attention to, or
draw the Committee's attention to is the background of the Secretary
of State for International Development. He was a previous Minister
for Trade and so in that sense has considerable background in
both the development dimension of trade negotiations and, indeed,
the British business dimension too.
Q13 Chairman: It seems to me you
work very hard, you in your job, because you have got a lot of
your old DFID responsibilities, you have got trade policy responsibilities,
which are hugely important, and you have got a whole stack of
the old DTI responsibilitiesconsumer affairs, competition
policy and so onvery big questionswhile Digby just
goes round the world banging the drum. It seems a bit of an unfair
share of responsibilities, does it not?
Lord Jones of Birmingham: Want
to swap?
Mr Thomas: I think that is a slightly
unfair characterisation of the situation. Many of the specific
country responsibilities that I had before the change in my role
in July are being done by other ministers in the Department for
International Development. The competition responsibilities that
I have, as you rightly point out, within the Department for Business
and Enterprise, complement, I think, the trade policy questions
quite strongly. So, whilst I appreciate your description of me
having to work extremely hard, and I do, and I relish the challenges
that each day brings, I think actually it is a set-up that works
very well. What I do not have to do, which previous trade ministers
had to do, is the trade promotion side, because Digby is able
to.
Q14 Chairman: As you know from a
committee report we produced recently to which you responded but
I have not had your response yet, we were in favour of ministers
travelling more to promote; so there is a lot of sympathy there.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: Also,
I understand now why the business community and, indeed, those
who work in the business community, those employed in the business
community, were always frustrated by ministers who were trying
to do both jobs, who were cancelling at the last minute, who did
not go, who went home early, all because they were trying to do
all the other things that you have talked about.
Q15 Chairman: Our recent European
report put this in it, you have responded to it; I have not had
your response yet.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: You
in 2006 said: "How about sorting this out?", not only
to the Government, but, more importantly, I have got the privilege
of actually trying to make it work.
Q16 Chairman: But what does concern
me is as you go round the world you will find a lot of things
out that the rest of the ministerial teams need to know about.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: Spot
on.
Q17 Chairman: You have only attended
the Cabinet Committee once, I think, so far. I would like to see
you there more regularly.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: Two
answers to that. Yes, you are right. I should make an effort to
get to them, you are right, but if you look at why I did not,
it is usually because I am sitting banging the drum for Britain
in another country; I have not been sitting at my desk in Whitehall.
The other thing is, just because I do not actually physically
go to an hour's meeting because I am in Dubai, or Mumbai, or Washington
does not mean that I or my officials are not on the phone to him
or his officials or, indeed, to the Prime Minister, or the Chancellor,
or any of the other secretaries of state where the issue I have
learnt in another country has a direct relevance. Behind the scenes,
just because you do not read it in the newspaper these days does
not mean I am not doing it.
Q18 Chairman: I am being rather self-indulgent.
I must hand on to my colleagues. Just one last factual question
from me to either of you really, probably more to you, Gareth.
How often does the committee meet? What decisions has it made?
What sort of things does it do?
Mr Thomas: I think the committee
has met three times since July, when it was established. There
is another meeting shortly. We have discussed progress in the
Doha Round, we have discussed progress in term of the Economic
Partnership Agreement discussions and we have also discussed very
briefly the Commission's Green Paper on Trade Defence Instruments
and what our response to that should be and, as a result of those
discussions, our lobbying strategy has been amended, changed,
reactivated, et cetera, nuanced to reflect those discussions.
Chairman: Thank you. I will move
on. Brian Binley.
Q19 Mr Binley: Thank you very much.
My Lord, promotion of the UK round the world sounds like "super
salesman Digby". Is that a fair description? Would are revel
in that, or would you think that was slightly insulting?
Lord Jones of Birmingham: Someone
as shy, quiet and backward in coming forward like me would fight
shy of the description of which you speaknot! People are
kind enough to say that that is part of the job and people are
kind enough to say it seems to be being done. Do I revel in it?
I hope that is an arrogance I have not got. Do I identify with
it and work on it and make sure that I can sell brand Britain
around the world and use business as its wider value? It is not
just about putting profits into shareholders, it is about Britain's
values. Our values that, I can tell you, notwithstanding all the
problems we have, we are still seen round the world as good partners
with good values and a sense of fairness. We still are. When a
British company or a British based company that happens to have
an overseas headquarters is into a country, from America to Bangladesh,
the Union Jack is there, and it means that the enhancement of
the brand of everything that we stand for can come through the
conduit of an inward investment or an overseas trade in either
direction. If by concentrating and giving it time and using the
skill you very kindly said I might have we can enhance brand Britain,
I not only revel in it, actually that is a job I am privileged
to do, frankly.
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