Examination of Witnesses (Questions 150-159)
MR DAVID
LAMMY
9 OCTOBER 2007
Q150 Chairman: Good morning, Minister.
Thank you very much for coming to see us. We are a sub-committee
of the Trade and Industry Select Committee. We have a particular
interest in seeing what has happened to the Women and Work Commission
Report, with particular emphasis around the equal pay gap and
occupational segregation as a factor towards that. Obviously we
have a particular interest in that as a Trade and Industry Committee
because it ties into issues around the skills gap and how we fill
that, and the waste of resources that are available to us. It
obviously crosses every government department, and we are seeing
ministers from three different departments; and we have also done
a survey of the other departments on what they are doing. We think
that obviously your area of work is particularly relevant to a
number of the areas that we are looking at. Perhaps we could march
straight in with a fairly open question to begin with. As you
will know the Women and Work Commission made 40 different recommendations:
which of those would you particularly highlight as being the most
significant for tackling gender inequality in the workplace; and
why? Are there any particular "easy wins" you can see
that your Department should make in relation to the work of the
Commission and recommendations that they are putting forward?
Mr Lammy: When I looked at the
recommendations in the first few weeks of the job and decided
what I wanted to do and what I wanted to see, I think Recommendations
1 and 22, if my recollection is correct, that bearing in terms
of our Department really falls to apprenticeships and ensuring
that (as we said we are growing apprenticeships to 500,000 across
the country, 400,000 in England) women are benefiting from that
growth. My own view, having seen some apprenticeships on the ground,
is that the flexibility is now there; the part-time possibilities
are now there for women in terms of the framework for apprenticeships;
but we still have a job to do to actually have the employers who
want to provide those apprenticeships and use that flexibility
to get women into the workforce. Adult apprenticeships here are
absolutely key with £16.7 million this year. We have got
to ensure that the priority, which is gender, disability and BME
backgrounds, is there and that we are seeing those women coming
forward. I went with Karren Brady to look at the Sector Pathways
pilot, and particularly at construction in London that Kier are
running in Islington; and obviously I think it is right to say
the pilot has got off to a slow start. We need to see that grow
and involve more women across the country; but I think that is
where my Department can really add value. Yes, we have got the
Train to Gain programme where we are wanting a more employer-led
response, so that we are in that persuasive business of encouraging
employers to take skills seriously and putting the money in that
direction; but that particular Pathway is interesting because
it is far more flexible. It is not just aimed at Level 2; it is
also Level 3 and beyond; and it is also not just aimed at employers
that are under 250 employees but it can include big companies
as well. I think the contribution that we can make is in that
joining up. There is a big agenda that we set out in World Class
Skills. We have got to do far more work—DWP, Jobcentre Plus
and others—but broadly it is in apprenticeships; it is in
Train to Gain and the broader skills agenda that I hope we are
meeting your aspirations, which we share.
Q151 Chairman: Can you see areas
where you could see some progress within a reasonable timescale?
We are obviously talking entrenched difficult areas here that
have been with us over many years where we have failed to make
progress. Apart from that general aspiration you have put forward,
can you see how you can make progress on those areas reasonably
quickly?
Mr Lammy: We should make progress
reasonably quickly in adult apprenticeships because there gender
is a stated priority, and there are only two others, and that
is ethnicity and disability. We should make progress there within
a reasonable timeframe. We have got to accelerate the Sector Pathway.
Given that that is a pilot which concludes in 2008-09—it
does not conclude but the evaluation of how it is going comes
at that point—we should see progress there, and that will
have a big effect in London. The Level 3 pilots also will net
big dividends I think for women. We have said there has to be
an entitlement for Level 3 adults between 19 and 25, and I think
that will benefit particularly young mothers who may want to return
to the workplace or have had interruptions in their education
in that period often between 16 and 20. That should see progress
because the entitlement is there to get them the Level 2 training
we want them to exercise. I think there are areas in which we
should see progress over the next, I would say, 18 months.
Chairman: Thank you. We will come back
to explore the issues on apprenticeships later on.
Q152 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: First of
all, Minister, thank you very much for coming to see us today.
On some points of clarity, what is the older age group for which
you are eligible for an older apprenticeship? You said 19-25,
is that the upper limit, 25?
Mr Lammy: We are reviewing the
whole of apprenticeships at the moment. I think we recognise that
there is more work to do with adult apprenticeships. I came back
from Scandinavia two and a half weeks ago where their progress
in Sweden and Finland on adult apprenticeships is considerable.
Yes, we have got 25-plus apprenticeships but we have not got the
numbers there that we want to see over the next while. I hope
as we grow to 400,000 that a significant proportion of that are
adult apprenticeships.
Q153 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: Does "significant
proportion" mean over 50%?
Mr Lammy: No, it does not.
Q154 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: I understand
that to be the definition of "significant". What is
your definition of "significant"? Is it 2%? I have got
to have some idea of what you mean by "significant proportion"
of apprenticeships—that is really important.
Mr Lammy: We have got 250,000
apprenticeships at the moment. We have said we will grow that
to 500,000 across England, Scotland and Wales, and within that
number 400,000 in England. The stated obligations of the Prime
Minister are an entitlement for 16-18; and obviously that is an
important part where we are putting in a lot of effort, and there
is a lot of effort pre-school as well for young people. At the
same time we want to grow adult apprenticeships. When I say a
"significant proportion" I meant that there is considerable
growth, but I cannot get into percentages. I hope it is more than
2%, but it cannot be as much as 50% when we have got a pot of
money and have big obligations that we have said we are going
to make to 16-18 year olds.
Q155 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: We have got
three categories of apprenticeship for the moment: we have got
the young persons apprenticeship, between 16-19; we have then
got what you define as the older person's apprenticeship, 19-25
or 26?
Mr Lammy: No, there are 25-plus
apprenticeships as well.
Q156 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: Okay. Then
you have got a portion of 25-over apprenticeships. My understanding
about those is that they are just pilot studies at the moment,
or are they confirmed programmes?
Mr Lammy: There are a small number.
They are nowhere near where we want to be at the end.
Q157 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: My question
is around what are we doing for older women. I suspect there is
a small proportion of women who regard themselves as older between
the ages of 19 and 26. Most of them would consider themselves
to be older after 26 and into their 30s. Certainly that is when
many women discharge their responsibilities with regard to childcare
and are really looking to address some of the problems that may
have arisen during their own education and want to put them right.
My question is: if you are seriously considering allocating a
number of places or a growth in that older sector, then how do
you intend to ensure that within that growth there is a facility
made available for older women who want or may be eligible to
work in the STEM sector?
Mr Lammy: That is a specific area.
Can I drill down to get to that. You are right that, for example,
if we have got learndirect running their nextsteps work, which
is really about getting people back into the labour market and
the lion's share of those people are women, (and 55% of those
ringing learndirect or wanting those nextsteps direct face-to-face
advice are women), then they have to have placements to go to.
In terms of this CSR spending period, this next three years, we
want growth to 10,000 per year in adult apprenticeships.
Q158 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: Is that the
19-26?
Mr Lammy: No, that is 25-plus
in the next CSR period.
Q159 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: We want 10,000?
Mr Lammy: Yes, 10,000. That is
not obviously 50% of the 400,000, but it is significant growth
given that in terms of 25-plus the numbers are small at the moment.
You are right in terms of what the direction of travel should
be. If the advice is there for these women (which can be: what
are the skills for life you need; what are the Level 2 qualifications
that you need; what is the support you get back into the employment?),
we have got to have the apprenticeships available for those women;
and we have got to have the other things as well. When we get
to the STEM work that you are doing, that UKRC are doing, we support
things like the Returns Project which is helping those women come
back into employment at a level which is appropriate for them,
given that they have got serious qualifications but may have been
outside the labour market for several years because they have
been raising their children.
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