Examination of Witnesses (Questions 180-196)
MR DAVID
LAMMY
9 OCTOBER 2007
Q180 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: In customer
services does that mean vehicle maintenance and repair?
Mr Lammy: It is automotive and
retail so I suspect so.
Q181 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: Could you
find out?
Mr Lammy: I can find out. Claire,
you will forgive me, I have been in the job 12 weeks and I have
not been able to get round all the Sector Skills Councils but
I will do my best. The construction industry I think we have talked
about. There is a lot of work going on in the Olympics and work
going on particularly with graduates so that women actually who
are getting qualified are coming in and getting the jobs within
the sector. Energy and utility are doing work enabling 380 women
to access a particular tailored leadership programme. We have
got Lantra working on career progression within the environmental
and land-based industry for 600 women. We have got Semta supporting
400 women in bioscience and engineering. We have got Skillfast
working on getting those at the lower end of the skills market,
job securing and training as they move up. eSkills—I have
mentioned the work they are doing on IT in schools. We have got
Logistics again working with stereotyping perception and guidance
with careers counsellors to change the perception of women who
might want to come into freight to be long-distance lorry drivers
and to get the LGV licences.
Q182 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: Thank you
very much for that because you have answered my next question,
which was how many women are benefiting from that investment.
That is £10 million going in. Do you think you are getting
good value for money in terms of the output?
Mr Lammy: When I look across the
range of sectors responding saying that gender is a key priority
for them I am pleased. My initial assessment of women within the
sectors in leadership roles, particularly on the Sector Skills
Councils, I am pleased to see them there. When I look at the range
of projects that is going on those are exciting first steps. I
think it is far too soon for me to say. This is just the beginning
of a journey. This is not by any means the median point.
Q183 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: When will
you be able to make an assessment of that investment?
Mr Lammy: What we have said is
that we want to re-license our Sector Skills Councils and re-focus
some activity. Clearly at that point that is a good juncture at
which to communicate what has worked and what has worked less
well.
Q184 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: You omitted
in your list of sectors to refer to the Government Sector Skills
Councils. The Government has huge opportunities to provide apprenticeship-based
programmes. Is there a specific reason why our own Government
is not participating in this particular programme?
Mr Lammy: It is not on my list.
I do not know the reasoning. I think what we are all aware of
is that there is much more the public sector can do, that is in
relation to apprenticeships, that is in relation to within Sector
Skills.
Q185 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: It is just
unfortunate that they are not on this list and we are, of course,
big purchasers of training and big providers of opportunities,
but not engaged on this list?
Mr Lammy: Although we probably
ought to qualify when we talk about Government. For example, the
Ministry of Defence has a good track record in apprenticeships;
and has been doing now for some time quite a bit of work on gender
and perception; the Health Service in terms of Train to Gain.
Brokers have made some real inroads into social care and the Health
Service moving women up. I have met nursery nurses and others
who are now talking about setting up their own business because
of that work. Broadly speaking within the public sector there
is variation and difference that we ought to be sensitive to.
I am with you in the direction of what you are indicating, which
is that the public sector needs to step up to this, it can do
more; and that is certainly something I want to probe in greater
detail over the next few months.
Q186 Miss Kirkbride: Our predecessors
recommended that the Learning and Skills Councils and the Sector
Skills Councils should be more involved in advice for young people
in schools and colleges—I wonder whether this is now happening?
Mr Lammy: You probably know our
absolutely stated ambition to have an adults' careers service.
Colleagues in DCSF are now responsible for the careers service,
the old Connexions within schools. I am perhaps not the best minister
to inform you in relation to the detail of what is now happening
in schools. What we certainly want to ensure with the setting
up of a new adults' career service is that it is linked into school
and has those links; and that for young people from 19 plus they
really have quality service, that is comprehensive, that is challenging
stereotypes, that is using the best practice, not just from this
country but from around the world and that is universally accessible
to all.
Q187 Miss Kirkbride: Who will be
doing that?
Mr Lammy: We have not issued the
contract. That is something we are modelling and exploring with
the LSC.
Q188 Miss Kirkbride: How would you
like to see work experience changed to encourage girls to do a
variety of jobs? In particular, how is the Wider Horizons project
of the UK Resource Centre being developed? I think mainly the
focus is, as you were saying earlier, starting with parents, and
girls knowing exactly what they are going to do with their lives,
but actually challenging that in schools so you are sent to a
building site rather than to nursing college.
Mr Lammy: I certainly welcome
what the Wider Horizons project is doing. My own view is that
there are two important strategic areas to bring about a culture
change over the next period: one is with employers generally;
and the second I think is the pre-16 work, that obviously has
to take place in schools, not just with the young people themselves
but with their parents. In a policy sense that is something I
am acutely aware of in relation to apprenticeships and, in our
review, how we take that work forward—very important; how
we are getting employers into schools. That is something the Sector
Skills Councils themselves are aware of. What different industries
have been saying to me, I got this from the land- based and agricultural
sector, I got it from gasfitters and others that, in a sense,
in 2007 the traditional "mucky industries" as it were
are not in the forefront of young people's minds in the way they
used to be. You ask an average 16-year old what he wants to do
and he wants to work for the BBC or Channel 4; he is aware of
brands like Nike and others. Those employers in some of those
traditional industries, who are offering great prospects, do have
to be in school earlier. We do have to have those bite-sized taster
experiences. The workplace programmes have to be comprehensive.
I need to work with colleagues to encourage that activity so it
bears dividends when they older and, if you like, when our departmental
interests really kick in. You may want to speak to colleagues
in DCSF in detail about how that work is going forward.
Q189 Miss Kirkbride: Having gone
into schools to be a gasfitter, be a plumber or to do the traditional
mucky jobs, how do you get the girls more interested? What would
be the mechanism of saying, "We're not just talking to the
boys here, we're talking to the girls to come and do it"?
Mr Lammy: That is about pedagogic
practice; new practice; it is about literature not being stereotypical;
it is about the women who do exist in those industries coming
into schools; it is about role-modelling; it is about all of the
things that certainly I have advocated in relation to BME populations
in this country. That is how you change perceptions. You have
got to be in there. You have got to be active. It is about mentoring,
as well as careers advice. It is about serious engagement again,
again and again on these issues it seems to me.
Q190 Chairman: You have talked about
having to change the culture of employers, and also we need to
change the culture at work to get girls to on work placements.
There are also issues around people who are in employment and
whether they are then able to switch into different areas of work.
Within those areas the role of trade unions can be very important.
I know that we are coming up to the second round of projects under
the Union Modernisation Fund. How much of that money is being
provided to develop trade union equality reps?
Mr Lammy: I think £900,000
has been provided and the unions are, the NUT, Unison, CWU and
the TUC; the lion's share of money coming from BERR, the old DTI,
to those unions.
Q191 Chairman: So that is not in
your patch?
Mr Lammy: No, it is not.
Q192 Chairman: Can you tell us anything
about the projects on gender equality under the fund, or is that
something you would not know about?
Mr Lammy: I am aware of the projects
but I cannot give the detail on that.
Q193 Chairman: That should be something
we should get from them?
Mr Lammy: I am sure we can provide
you with the detail but you may want to explore it further with
them.
Q194 Chairman: Do you have any view
on the proposal from some of the unions that we should have statutory
equality reps?
Mr Lammy: No, I have not. I do
encourage the Committee to recognise the work of Unionlearn and
Unionlearning reps in this area who have really made a difference.
Certainly that is our big departmental interest. We have increased
the funds for Unionlearn because it has been such a huge success.
I am actually meeting later on today—and this is key to
some of the points that Claire was making—with Baroness
Wall and the union reps that sit on each of the Sector Skills
Councils to drive the agendas that we all know are so important.
It is not just women on the board, it is actually unions who have
traditionally taken up these issues that are hugely important.
I will hear from them this afternoon; hear some of their concerns,
hear the things they have succeeded on, and I really encourage
the Committee to take an interest in the work they are doing.
Q195 Miss Kirkbride: The overall
impression given by the Towards a Fairer Future report
is of a number of worthwhile initiatives, many of which are pilots,
with little co-ordination, no long-term commitment to funding,
some lack of clarity over how they are to be assessed and their
value compared, and little indication of how they will be developed
over the next few years. After being in the job for 12 weeks,
Minister, could you comment?
Mr Lammy: I think there are two
things I would say: one is to remind the Committee of the broad
direction of travel; skills accounts for individuals, so that
you can see your entitlement; you can build your portfolio; you
can see the subsidy that is going towards your Level 2 and beyond
qualifications; and that empowers individuals and certainly empowers
women being able to exercise that right; an adult careers service,
as well as shifting the money to employers; having the Sector
Skills Councils doing that work—and we have talked about
some of the schemes that are happening; and trying to get the
culture change in the system that, in the end, benefits those
with low skills, benefits women and hopefully benefits some of
our black and ethnic minority populations. Then the more general
is that this is an exciting time, and that is why there are pilots
in the system showing how to get flexibility, how to change perception,
how to work with women in particular sectors to change the way
that it has been in the past. Key opportunities also with the
Olympics; the work that we can do in STEM-related subjects as
well; and, please, procurement and training going hand-in-hand
in, say, the Olympics. This is an exciting time. Naturally we
want trailblazing schemes to show the way, and that is why we
have pilots. In our Department we have just issued an Equality
Impact Assessment to ensure that across the piece of the things
coming out of our Department equality and gender equality is at
the heart of what we are doing. I think the Committee will hear
later on from Harriet Harman who is sitting in the Cabinet with
this agenda and is there to ensure that that coherence exists
across the system.
Q196 Chairman: If you are still in
the job a year and 12 weeks in, you will be able to come back
and show us how the projects have rolled out, and you are coordinating
both within the Department and with other departments and agencies
to promote these projects. We look forward to a positive report
in a year's time.
Mr Lammy: I look forward to coming
back in a year's time. I am sure there will still be a lot to
do, but there should be progress.
Chairman: Minister, thank you very much.
We appreciate that you have come after such a short time in the
job. I think we have asked for various pieces of information from
you including the Equality Impact Assessment. Thank you very much.
| 
