Examination of Witnesses (Questions 220-239)
POST OFFICE
LTD
5 FEBRUARY 2008
Q220 Mr Wright: Turning to the agreement,
we know that the Co-op Retail Group note that they did not sign
up to the Post Office Ltd-National Federation of Sub-Postmasters
agreement. Are they bound by it though?
Ms Vennells: They do not recognise
the NFSP as such, so the NFSP does not negotiate on their behalf
and we have a very separate contract with the Co-op, but they
are still covered by the nature of the agreement, so any of the
compensation payments that we would pay out would be the same
to the Co-op as to anybody else.
Q221 Mr Wright: So, because they
did not sign up to it, it still applies to them?
Ms Vennells: Well, if they choose
to take the compensation bit that applies to them, then the whole
thing has to apply, otherwise, their contract, I think it is,
has a three-month notice period.
Mr Cook: The Federation represents
all the independent sub-postmasters, but we have, as you heard
earlier, many multiple chains and I think the Federation are keen
on representing them as well, but historically they have not done
so. We tend to negotiate with the Federation as the best available
means of reaching a negotiated settlement and then offer that
to all the multiple partners as well, whether that is pay on a
routine basis, the annual pay round, or whether it is something
like this compensation.
Q222 Chairman: Just one question
on profitability, and it was helpful the information you gave
at the beginning, but are there any sub-post office branches which
are profitable to you which are being closed?
Mr Cook: I cannot categorically
say no, but it is clearly pretty illogical that we would want
to close something that is making a profit to us, unless it was
really, really close to another one that was making even more,
so you could say, "Is that a nonsense to have those two so
close together?" so that is why I do not want to give you
an unqualified no because I cannot tell you that we would not
find that, but the essence is really that we need to be sure that
every one we close produces a material saving to Post Office Ltd
and there will be no post office that closes that does not produce
a material saving to Post Office Ltd.
Q223 Mr Hoyle: Obviously the local
post offices are the big issue and you have mentioned Lancashire
and what you are part of is trying to communicate with those post
offices, but what do you think of this for hypocrisy: the Post
Office wants to close and yet the Conservative candidate or Councillor
Smith has put a petition in there to keep the post office open
and then we have got the sub-postmaster who is allowing people
to sign a petition to keep it open even though they have applied
to close, so what is your view?
Mr Cook: I am not going to comment
on people I have never even met before, so all I will say is that
we are looking to get an evenly spread network and, wherever possible,
we will try and match sub-postmaster preference to the community's
needs, but it is not going to be possible all the time.
Q224 Mr Hoyle: So you cannot sniff
any hypocrisy there?
Mr Cook: As I have said, I am
not into commenting on other people I have not met before and
I have told you my answer.
Q225 Mr Hoyle: Are you responsible
for post offices and shops?
Mr Cook: I am.
Q226 Mr Hoyle: Let us see if we can
try it a different way, and I can see it is going to be easier
for a dentist to draw teeth than me an answer. We are talking
about post offices and you have decided, not me as the Member
of Parliament, to recommend the closure of five post offices,
three of which wish to close because you have been in communication,
not me. You sent me a report that says, "This post office
wishes to close". Is that fair?
Mr Cook: It sounds okay so far.
Q227 Mr Hoyle: So you think your
letters and your details and your documents so far are okay. Okay,
let us see if we can take it a bit further. Therefore, I am told
that these wish to close and the other two do not, fine, so my
view is that those who do not want to close who claim they are
doing a very good job and a very good service, we ought to see
how we can support them to keep open, whilst those who wish to
close have got a petition on the counter saying that they wish
this post office to stay open. Do you not think there is some
hypocrisy because you sent me a letter saying that the post office
wants to close, yet the postmaster is encouraging people to sign
a petition to stay open? When is the truth going to come out?
Mr Cook: You are not doing very
well on getting these teeth out, are you? I am sorry, but I am
not quite sure where this conversation is leading us. I could
give you the same answer again, if that is what you would like.
Q228 Mr Hoyle: Well, you are meant
to communicate, so why do you not tell the people around that
post office that the sub-postmaster wishes to close? Let us not
kid the people because that is what is happening, the sub-postmaster
is pretending that he wants to keep the shop open, but all the
time he has sent you a letter, saying, "I want the money",
so how is the communication with the public out there? Why do
we not tell the public that this post office wishes to close?
Let us not let them go through the process of this Conservative
nonsense of how to retain a post office when all the time there
will be a closure.
Mr Cook: There certainly has been
some history, even in the last programme, of individual sub-postmasters
who, for their own personal preferences, wanted to close, but
they are embarrassed in the community that they are in to own
up to the fact that they want to go because they feel they are
letting the community down by going.
Q229 Mr Hoyle: I do not mind embarrassment,
but what I do not like is to actually gather names on a petition
that goes to a central office to say what a good job we are doing.
Mr Cook: But you will not be luring
me into saying nasty things about people I have not met before.
Q230 Mr Hoyle: So you have not met
the Conservatives!
Mr Cook: I have not met those
Conservatives or those three sub-postmasters. I have now met you
though!
Q231 Mr Hoyle: Right, so let us go
on and you judge me as being Mr Nasty and I am standing up for
the people I represent. Now, the council, you communicate with
the council?
Mr Cook: Yes.
Q232 Mr Hoyle: Two of us got letters
to say which post offices are closing and it ended up in the local
newspaper, but it was not me that gave it, so prior there had
been an embargo, by the Wednesday it had been released. The local
councils are encouraged in here to set up council accounts in
post offices. Has that happened?
Mr Cook: Council accounts?
Q233 Mr Hoyle: They are calling them
council counters in local post office branches.
Mr Cook: We are certainly working
very successfully with a number of local authorities now and Lambeth
is a case in point. I think many local authorities have realised
that they are losing branches because government services were
not being used, as I said in my introduction, as much as was the
case. It has created a climate for us where we can go to those
local authorities and say, "Look, one of the ways that this
could all be less painful is if you put more business our way",
and that is becoming quite prevalent.
Q234 Mr Hoyle: We are getting somewhere
because the same councillor is part of the Tory-controlled Chorley
Borough Council which does not allow you to pay any council bills
in the post office. Do you think that might have a hint of hypocrisy
about it?
Mr Cook: It is very disappointing
we do not have the business. I am not at all interested in which
party they are in, I have to say.
Q235 Mr Hoyle: No, you are not bothered.
Mr Cook: No, I am not.
Q236 Mr Hoyle: I think that is the
problem, that you are not bothered and I think that is what is
coming out loud and clear. You are not bothered and that is why
I have five closures and the fact is that, when you meet local
councils, who do you meet—the chief executive and all the
political parties?
Mr Cook: We usually meet the chief
executive.
Q237 Mr Hoyle: And that is it? What
about the politicians?
Mr Cook: Well, it depends if they
are in attendance.
Q238 Mr Hoyle: Have you met with
Chorley Borough Council?
Mr Cook: I have not personally,
no.
Q239 Mr Hoyle: Do you know if your
organisation has met with Chorley Borough Council?
Mr Cook: No, I do not.
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