Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-71)
SIR BOB
KERSLAKE
18 FEBRUARY 2008
Q60 Chair: Can I ask about the relationship
between the HCA and Ministers? You seem to be suggesting that
there will be a closer relationship between the new agency and
Ministers than there was or is between the Housing Corporation,
English Partnerships and Ministers.
Sir Bob Kerslake: I think the
nature of what the agency is going to be responsible for—and
it is a broader range of activity and includes new areas, things
like decent homes, the housing market renewal and so on—does
prompt the need to look at how that working relationship operates.
There is a clear sense in which the agency is about delivery and
Ministers are about policy, but the agency can and should be making
an input on the delivery implications and policy options, and
similarly, the delivery of key policies is not something that
should happen without a proper conversation with Ministers about
the impact. What I am saying therefore is that there can and should
be a strong dialogue between the agency and Ministers in both
directions, both on policy and on delivery, but you do that within
a very clear, formal framework that defines the roles and responsibilities.
That is really what I am saying. I think the nature of the things
that are transferring do mean that there is likely to be ... I
think there is already a lot of dialogue that goes on between
English Partnerships, the Housing Corporation and Ministers. I
think the agency will want to do all of that and potentially more.
Q61 Sir Paul Beresford: Have these
clear definitions that you talk about been set out or are you
wandering in, hoping?
Sir Bob Kerslake: Part of the
next stage of setting up the agency will be to do things like
the tasking framework and the financial memorandum. Those are
key documents that will define roles and responsibilities between
government and the agency.
Q62 Sir Paul Beresford: What happens
if you do not like them?
Sir Bob Kerslake: There will be
a debate and I am sure we will reach a point of agreement.
Sir Paul Beresford: There is going to
be a lot of talking going on in all directions.
Q63 Jim Dobbin: You are taking over
this role at quite an important time really because issues of
land use, quality land and planning legislation are all very high
on the agenda. How are you going to handle or build up relationships
between all the other agencies other than the ones we have mentioned—the
utilities, the Environment Agency? They are all part of this as
well. I am hinting really at the severe flooding that we have
had across the country. That is why I was talking about the quality
of the land. It is a very delicate and very sensitive area.
Sir Bob Kerslake: I am smiling
because I have practical experience of the issues around flooding.
I am not suggesting any of these issues are simple or easy to
resolve. My experience tells me that if you have strong and respectful
dialogue with people, you can almost always see your way through
many of the tensions and challenges that you have. We have managed
to do that on a lot of things that have happened in Sheffield
and I am sure that can be done elsewhere as well. What works here
is both high-level engagement and strong working relationships
on the ground, which is why I want strong regional teams to be
in place here. Most of these issues, with good people, with creativity
and innovation, you can find ways through them. Where they break
down is where the dialogue and conversation is not happening properly
and people are not respecting the different roles of the different
agencies. That is my personal experience of where you hit the
problems. If you do have that kind of working relationship with
the agencies, then a lot can and will be resolved and it is part
of my job to make sure that that kind of working relationship
is there with all the key partners—RDAs, utilities, Environment
Agency and so on.
Q64 Chair: Can we move on to the
role of the Academy for Sustainable Communities? There is a big
issue about planning skills and other skills amongst those who
are actually delivering—or not delivering. How are you looking
to organise the Academy for Sustainable Communities so that its
knowledge and experience are shared?
Sir Bob Kerslake: There are two
issues around the skills here. One is around the general availability
of key professional skills: are there enough planners, are there
enough engineers, and so on? Then there is an issue about the
skills that those people have, so are they very, very good in
their own particular field but do not understand and, going back
to my previous word, "respect" a wider range of skills
and expertise that comes with effective regeneration? I think
the Academy is focused more on the second than the first and I
think that is very much understandable and right, because you
need enough planners and engineers but you need planners and engineers
who can work collaboratively and understand how you work with
communities and get engagement and so on. What I would like to
do is to continue with that focus of the Academy. I do not intend
to make a big shift in its form at this stage in the process but
what I would want to do—and it goes back to an earlier point
that was made in the questioning—is to see whether the Academy
can be more strongly focused on the pressure points where these
issues are most acute across the country, so to ask the question:
can they or should they be assisting more directly in places where
there are particular issues, either about the absolute number
of people with the right skills or with the ability to work collaboratively
across different professional disciplines?
Q65 Chair: Whose role and responsibility
is it then to make sure there are enough planners and engineers,
et cetera?
Sir Bob Kerslake: It is probably
not one person's role, is it?
Q66 Chair: Which Department? Is it
part of the agency's work or not?
Sir Bob Kerslake: It will be a
mix of people. In the first instance, I guess, there is an issue
about individual local authorities having a role to make sure
they have the right set of people and skills to do their functions.
There are also issues about the professional bodies and the Department's
role in relation to skills development and sector skills councils
and so on. There are clearly particular professional areas where
we need to make sure there is a proper supply of skills as well.
I think CLG and the agency will have a role in assessing whether
there are adequate skills across the range of tasks, and then
having conversations with those who provide those skills to say
where the gaps are and what is happening. The Academy will play
a part in that conversation. I do not think the agency per
se will be directly doing the skills training but it can and
should be making an assessment as to whether there is the right
range of skills there and whether the absence of skills is proving
a barrier to progress, and then across government having a dialogue
with the relevant departments.
Q67 Andrew George: I know that many
RSLs are concerned about the power of the HCA in respect of disposals
of land and buildings and other capital items, particularly where
it has to meet, as local authorities normally have to meet, the
requirement for the best return on those capital assets. In those
circumstances where the best financial return perhaps might be
at odds with other objectives of the HCA, like providing housing
and regeneration, how will you balance those two objectives?
Sir Bob Kerslake: My understanding
is that that particular issue is one that has come up in the Bill
and is being considered by the Department at the moment. I would
not want to pre-empt the Minister in his work on that particular
issue at this stage.
Q68 Andrew George: Perhaps another
element which comes back to bullet point three of the concluding
comments in your supplementary memorandum, "Ensure that the
above targets are met in a way that are economically, socially
and environmentally sustainable ... and provides value for money",
and it was the value for money side I was asking about there but
take those other objectives, the socially and environmentally
sustainable. One social group is of course the disabled. To what
extent will you ensure that future developments are supported
by the HCA, and you will ensure that this is delivered, are in
fact future-proof and adaptable for disabled people? Will that
be something which you see can be delivered at the same time as
simply meeting government targets on housing numbers?
Sir Bob Kerslake: The short answer
is yes, I do. You are right to say that quite a common feedback
I have had from people since I got the job—and I have done
a lot of talking to people and hearing what they have to say—is
a concern whether this agency will be so numbers-driven that it
will lose sight of the need to create communities, the need for
sustainability, the need to deal with particular groups who have
particular needs, such as with disabilities. The short answer
is I do not think it can or should. It must continue to both progress
the targets and be alert to these issues. My personal experience
about understanding needs is actually to engage with the communities
themselves and the groups themselves about requirements. That
is how you keep on top of changing needs.
Q69 Andrew George: Is that something
which in your annual report you will set yourself, as an agency,
your own expectations and targets, which are not necessarily those
of the Government in terms of the headline numbers?
Sir Bob Kerslake: If you are talking
specifically about issues to do with equalities and sustainability,
the agency must look at how it will measure success there. I cannot
say I know exactly yet what those measures of success will be
but they have to be part of the mix.
Q70 Chair: Are you looking to publish
other reports regularly other than the annual report and the financial
accounts?
Sir Bob Kerslake: I would envisage
a similar kind of reporting regime to the terms of the key documents
to the existing agencies' corporate plan. You would expect to
see a corporate plan produced as well as the annual report on
performance, for example.
Q71 Chair: Can I just ask one final
question? I have been very struck that when you have used examples
to illustrate the points you are making it almost always refers
to regeneration, but in the South and in London you have housing
growth areas which do not need any regeneration; they just need
expansion and growth. Do you see there are different issues there
or do you think it is all the same?
Sir Bob Kerslake: No, absolutely
not and if I gave that impression, I apologise. I think I said
earlier that the balance between growth and renewal will vary
from place to place. In my experience in Sheffield the early period
has been very much about renewal and regeneration but we are now
entering a period where we will see the city grow in population
and housing. In other places the balance will be much more towards
growth. You will find very few places where there is not some
dimension of renewal involved in what those places are trying
to achieve. That is really what I was trying to say. I am absolutely
alert to the fact that the emphasis in some places will be very
much on growth, with renewal playing a fairly small part, and
in some places we still face an agenda where the emphasis is very
much on renewal and growth plays a very small part. There are
still parts of the country we know where the renewal task is not
complete and I am very alert to that fact. I think the test of
the agency is whether it will be able to adapt to the different
circumstances.
Chair: Thank you very much. I am sure
we will be seeing you again and keeping a close eye on the progress
of the agency.
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