Examination of Witnesses (Questions 88-99)
MR SHUFKAT
RAZAQ, MS
SAJDA MAJEED
AND MR
MARIAN SIWERSKI
4 MARCH 2008
Q88 Chair: Can I start the meeting and
maybe it would help if I quickly explained the purpose of the
meeting and the reason why the Committee is here in Burnley. This
is the Communities and Local Government Select Committee and our
role is to monitor the work of the Department for Communities
and Local Government of central government. This is an inquiry
on community cohesion and migration and we are visiting three
different parts of England. We have already had a visit to Peterborough
which has a very high level of European Union migration associated
with the agricultural industry; and yesterday and today we are
in Burnley; and in a week or two we will be visiting Barking and
Dagenham in London. We are taking formal evidence this morning
so a transcript will be made of the proceedings and will be made
public and will feed into the work of the inquiry. Eventually
we will produce a report with recommendations to the Government.
The Government is obliged to respond to our recommendations. They
do not actually have to do as we ask but if they do not they are
usually expected to explain why they are rejecting our recommendations.
The purpose of the session this morning is to hear from you your
experience of the effects of migration so that it informs our
inquiry. We are very clear that there is a very different experience
in different parts of the country and we need to understand what
is going on in different bits of the country in order to be able
to inform our general inquiry. If the individuals who have given
evidence go away and think there was something you really should
have said that you did not, then we are more than happy to receive
written representations from you afterwards. If I could start
off to the three witnesses that we have here really and first
just ask what each of you would think are the main areas of tension
between the black and minority ethnic population, the white population
and the more newly arrived migrants?
Mr Razaq: I do not think any of
us are in a rush to start but I will go first. In terms of what
the areas of tensions are, I think the most topical, without being
political, is the issue around violent extremism at the moment.
In terms of tensions between minority communities, particularly
the Muslim community (and Burnley's demographics are such that
of the ethnic minority community we have got a sizeable Muslim
population) and given the whole global issue around preventing
terrorism and extremism, I think one of the tensions would be
around how that is perceived by the local community with the Muslim
population that is here as well. I think one of the biggest areas
of tension would be when there are acts of extremism taking place
elsewhere in the country then obviously that has a knock-on effect
in terms of tensions between communities locally as well.
Q89 Chair: And how does that manifest
itself?
Mr Razaq: I think that would probably
manifest itself—for example if there is an incident, there
will be increased anxieties within the indigenous communities
locally and you could see a rise in the number of what you would
call racial incidents perhaps, and you would probably see that
in the schools and you would probably see that within the community
as well. However, I have to say that is one of the main areas
of tension which everybody will probably recognise, but then there
are other tensions in terms of how regeneration activity takes
place and how areas are given preference over others, and that
is a long-standing one. I think that has been there for a number
of years since the beginning of the Single Regeneration Budget
programme: how areas are given preference over other areas in
terms of regeneration expenditure. For me those are the two main
areas of tension. One is a relatively historic one where the regeneration
budget was spent in certain areas and people's perception in other
areas was that it was going to one area and not another. I think
that is less so now but the first one that I mentioned is probably
more of a cause of tension between communities than the other
now.
Ms Majeed: I kind of agree with
most of what Shufkat is saying. From my own experience of bringing
the schools together through the Building Schools for the Future
project that we have had here, that has led to some issues, particularly
in schools where there is a high percentage of white children
and the two schools have come together and you have got a small
percentage of Asian kids, particularly in the Padiham area I would
say, where I think there are some issues around that. I am a bit
unsure whether the issue is within the school or from people that
support certain political parties and their views and they are
brought into schools via the children, but really it is the parents,
and maybe there are preconceived ideas about binding two schools
together, that issues are going to arise because they do not get
on. I think the Council have done a lot of work to resolve that
issue and are working towards that.
Mr Siwerski: I am from Poland.
I think the co-operation for example between Polish drivers and
English people is good and generally I think when you ask about
Polish people it is good. Maybe because I have stayed here with
my family I think in schools there is good co-operation. The next
problem generally for Polish people is the English language because
when you understand, when you ask, this is good, but when you
do not understand anything, this is a problem, you do not know
where you can go and who can help you. Generally 90 per cent I
think the problem is when you do not understand and generally
there is a problem with the English language. Between Polish and
English people I think relations are generally good. I can tell
you from my example because my family live here and generally
we have not had a problem. We have been able to rent a house,
my daughter goes to school, my wife has a job, so for us it is
a good situation because we can live here normally, but people
who I think maybe want to live here for three or five years and
they are only looking for a job, this is a problem because I am
not sure they need the English language, but this is only a group
of Polish people, or because the Polish and Czech languages are
the same so Polish and Czech people, and I think generally the
problem is with the English language.
Q90 Mr Betts: Do communities in Burnley
really lead separate lives? Are they pretty segregated in terms
of the different communities? We learned yesterday that there
are areas which are predominantly people who originated from the
Asian sub-continent, and there are areas which are predominantly
white communities and there is not a lot of interaction between
them. Does that create difficulties?
Mr Razaq: I think it depends really
on what we mean by segregation. I think if we are looking at it
from the point of view of whether there are areas where there
is a significant-sized Asian population and they cluster together,
then that is true. The majority of the Asian population is there
but what we are beginning to see is, for want of a better expression,
dispersion, so they are moving into other areas. If we are looking
at segregation from that point of view of are there areas which
are predominantly Asian and are there areas where there are very
few Asians, in that context there is segregation but it is not
a case that in the supermarket there is an aisle for Asians and
an aisle for everybody else. It is not that sort of thing. Some
people would perhaps unfortunately paint that kind of picture
of Mississippi in the 1960s, or something like that, but that
is not the case. There is a physical sense of segregation where
there are predominantly Asian areas and other areas where there
are very few Asians. If you look more broadly than that and if
you look at whether there is any work going on between Asians
and the white community, then there is work going on between Asians
and the white community; whether Asians are taking part in mainstream
activity, then there are Asians taking part in mainstream activity;
whether there are Asians involved in public sector working, then
there are. More broadly in terms of integration, I think it is
happening but I would not be so naive as to say that it is absolutely
perfect. We need to do more but in that context there is not that
much segregation as you would probably have a perception coming
to Burnley. However, in terms of physical location that is true
to an extent.
Ms Majeed: I would agree with
that. I think there is that segregation physically, but obviously
when you are at work, you do not just have Asian friends, you
work with all your colleagues, you meet them out of work, and
it is the same in schools. When Shufkat touched on mainstream
activities, I know quite a few Asian kids who go to boxing clubs
or karate clubs and they are not special clubs set up for Asian
kids, they are clubs that are set up for anybody in Burnley and
anybody can attend. I do feel that there is integration. Again
there is a fair bit we can do. If people choose to live in a certain
part of the area because there is a higher percentage of Asians,
it is probably because it is convenient for them. The shops are
close by, the mosques are close by and the schools are close by.
It is a lot about convenience and the feeling they want to live
close to family members, mothers and fathers, in the same way
that we had in Britain with the white community a number of years
ago. I do not feel segregated at all. I think there are opportunities
to integrate with people if you want to invite people into your
house. It does not necessarily mean if you are living on a housing
estate where there is an even balance of white and Asian families
they are going to integrate any better.
Q91 Mr Betts: Can I pick up on what
you said before about concerns about who was getting the money
for housing renovation work. That did imply rather that there
were some areas perceived to be Asian areas and some white areas,
and perhaps some conflicts and tensions about where the money
was going because it either went to a white area or an Asian area.
Can you say a bit more about that?
Mr Razaq: It was more so the case;
it is not the case as much now. In certain circumstances I would
say certain people for their own political agendas would still
use that, but in terms of the wider community generally in my
opinion the feeling that Asian areas are getting more than white
areas has been addressed, I would say pretty well, by the local
authority. There was a time when there was this view that the
Asian areas were getting all the money and the white areas were
not. The reality of the matter, which you will be aware of, is
it is dependent on deprivation. Money comes into Burnley for certain
areas because of the deprivation those areas face. We have five
areas particularly which are amongst the most deprived in the
country and of those five areas one would be regarded as an Asian
area because the majority of the population there is Asian. Communication
was an issue and how it was communicated out to the community
of why a particular area was getting funds and others did not
seem to be getting funds, and that has been addressed. There was
also a drive from government to try and address that issue but
the local authority particularly, especially in recent years,
have done well in trying to address that issue, so now the communication
is improved and I think the perception amongst people will also
be improved. Certain people I come in touch with now see that
is an area that is getting extra support, not because it is an
Asian area but because it is a deprived area, and there are other
areas that are deprived as well that warrant the same support.
That still leaves us with a different kind of issue that of the
15 wards, the 10 that are not deprived say, "Why are those
areas getting it?" and it is no longer "Why are the
Asians getting it?"
Q92 Mr Betts: Sometimes it is all
or nothing and you get everything in the five and nothing outside?
Mr Razaq: The perception is "those
people cannot be bothered working so why are they getting that
support when we are working very hard and we are not having our
local community centre done up?" so the issue has changed.
Q93 Andrew George: This is not so
much a devil's advocate question as a Martian's advocate question.
I have just come here from Mars, and Burnley is a fantastic place,
the sun always shines as far as I can see, and it is a community
rich in history, and there are people who have come here over
the years from different parts of the world so it is rich in culture
as well. Please explain to me why there are tensions here? Why
are people not celebrating that cultural diversity? Why are people
not enriching themselves and learning more from each other rather
than falling out with each other?
Ms Majeed: What I would say is
that they were falling out but they are making up now, so it is
something that did happen, but probably in the past three years
I have seen a change for the better because there is integration
and people do come together. My own perception is I feel when
people were writing newspaper columns and saying such-and-such
is happening in this area and such-and-such funding is happening
in this area—and I am talking historically now because those
things have happened—and what I am saying is that some of
those issues have been resolved and things that were being written
in the paper as open letters were then being discussed in pubs,
clubs and maybe households, and that led to this build-up of "them
and us". As Shufkat said, a lot of that has been addressed
now and it has changed. It is maybe a question about something
that happened in history and we are working to make it better.
Some of the things that I would point out include the Building
Good Community Relations programme that I have been involved in
in the past three years. There is a better network of people now
across Burnley that have that trust with one another and can approach
one another and ask questions rather than hearing rumours and
thinking there is this going on and that going on. There has been
a lot of good work in building up that relationship so people
have that trust in one another.
Q94 Mr Betts: So you started off
badly, rumours did not particularly help, but you are starting
to make things better?
Ms Majeed: Yes, I think the media
have played a key part in that, maybe there are more positive
messages coming out from our local newspaper than there were in
the past.
Mr Razaq: When I speak to my parents
and those that are the first generation of Asians to come particularly
into Burnley, things did not start off bad, things were quite
good. When they came here, they were made welcome, and they had
many friends from the indigenous community, the white community.
Yes, there were racial remarks because it was the late 1960s and
1970s and because people were seeing different people, people
who were different to them, so there was that, "Who are these
people?" and all that, but it was not bad. They got on well.
They went to the factories. The economy round here was pretty
good from what my parents tell me, there were plenty of jobs,
things were pretty good and everybody generally got on well. Then
when the decline started, the factories started disappearing and
the jobs were not there. My father tells me if he did not like
the work he could leave one factory in the morning and walk into
another factory in the afternoon. The situation was like that
because we had some major industries round here. But when the
decline started, the jobs started disappearing and there is a
correlation between that and the tensions building up between
communities. As far as it goes with regards to my parents' experience,
because I cannot remember how these tensions came about because
in the school that I went to, there were 1,000 students and 20
Asians and in the five years I was there, there were two fights
between an Asian and a white person. That is fact so it was fine.
But then after that as the deprivation issues have got more severe
and people are looking at their own circumstances thinking, "I
haven't got the money, I can't get a job" (because you could
not get jobs that did not need skills) and tensions started building
up. If you are frustrated with your own situation, it is natural—everybody
does it—you look to blame somebody else or a perception
is created where you feel somebody else is taking an opportunity
away from you. It started off good, it was good for quite some
while, and tensions then came because of deprivation. I think
things are now improving again as the situation in the town begins
to improve as well.
Andrew George: If you follow the logic
of that argument, you would say that the way of overcoming the
tensions is to inject wealth and prosperity into the area, you
do not need community development or anything else.
Chair: That is a question that Emily
was going to pursue.
Q95 Emily Thornberry: I was going
to ask what else should the Government do to help your community
bind together? If there is one recommendation you would want us
to take away, what would it be?
Ms Majeed: I think it is a combination
of maybe a bit more to do with community development, but we have
to be really careful. I have a child who is 14 and for him integration
and segregation are not really issues. If we keep on saying, "Right
kids, we need to come together, let's look at how we integrate,"
suddenly it becomes an issue and it has not been an issue up until
we have said it is an issue. It is about dealing with it in a
subtle way and bringing young people together so they can come
together and integrate. If you live in communities like Daneshouse,
apart from if you are involved in mainstream sports activities
out of school maybe you are not going to get that opportunity
to integrate with other children that are not from the Asian community.
We have had community development around for a long time. I have
been involved in community development probably for 15 years.
It needs innovation, it needs something new rather than, "Let's
sit down and have samosas and that is a salwar kameez"—we
need a bit more than that and we need to make it fun. With regeneration
in a way the two are linked together because if there is more
work, more people going out and working, they are integrating
and that in itself can lead to community development because if
you are working in a place together, you are doing social activities
together out of work, then you are interacting, are you not, if
that makes sense.
Mr Razaq: I will give you an example
of something that has been helpful to us. What has been helpful
to us in recent years is where we have received funding (and it
is not a huge amount relatively speaking but it is still a help)
from the Neighbourhood Renewal funding, we have had some flexibility.
The reasons we got that funding is because we are one of the most
deprived areas in the country and we were given some flexibility
in how we used that funding and we used that funding a bit differently
to how previous regeneration funding has been used. For example,
the previous regeneration funding has focused on particular areas
so SRB was focused on Burnley Wood, Daneshouse and Stoneyholme
and Bank Hall but in the Neighbourhood Renewal funding which we
got there was some flexibility in how we used that. We could use
that to cover the whole borough and lift the game for the whole
borough which in turn would lift the game for the most deprived
areas, and that has been helpful to us. I think one thing that
CLG in particular could do is continue allowing that degree of
flexibility in funds like the Neighbourhood Renewal funding, which
we are in receipt of, and any other funding which comes on-stream
to help support Super Output Areas. If we are allowed to continue
with the degree of flexibility we have had in terms of using that
funding to leverage mainstream funds, not just focusing it on
the most deprived areas but allowing us to focus it on the whole
borough, that would be helpful.
Q96 Emily Thornberry: If our priority
as a Labour Government is to help the poorest then why would we
be giving it to the whole borough and not targeting it to the
poorest?
Mr Razaq: The poorest area is
not an island on its own; it is within a borough. We have tried
this on the ground and it worked. If you focus £1 million
on the poorest areas—and there is absolutely a reason to
focus it on the poorest areas—the impact is less and the
impact you are likely to get from focusing it on the borough would
be far greater, and that is first-hand experience that I have
had and colleagues have had working in regeneration. That is what
works on the ground. People may disagree with that but that is
what I have seen and I would advocate that is what you need to
do to lift the poorest areas and raise the whole game in the borough.
Chair: That is a very interesting point
you have made. Would you be able to drop us a note with some specific
detail—
Emily Thornberry: --- And perhaps some
examples?
Q97 Chair: --- because that would
be really helpful.
Mr Razaq: If you are trying to
promote enterprise, something I am very familiar with, and if
you focus enterprise on the most deprived areas and you invested,
say, £100,000 in a campaign to promote enterprise in the
poorest areas, there is a whole host of issues and you are going
to get three or four or maybe ten businesses started. If you focus
it more widely on the whole area you may get 20 or 30 businesses
starting up which in turn will be employing people from the poorest
areas. That is an example. If you focus it purely on that area
you are not going to get that because of issues in that area.
But I could drop you a note with more specific details.
Q98 Mr Hands: First of all I would
say we are obviously a cross-party Committee representing all
three main political parties. Could I ask Mr Siwerski to tell
us a little bit about the Polish community in Burnley first of
all. Is it predominantly recent arrivals or is there a longer-standing
Polish community?
Mr Siwerski: For me Polish people
are in two groups. One group is a group where people want to live
here for three or five years but they have family in Poland and
I think they will only be here three or five years and then they
will live in Poland. The second group is people who live here
and have families. I think once you have family here you know
what you want. Like my situation, it is step-by-step, you have
a job, a house, you know what you want, but generally Polish people
or Polish groups I am not sure what I can tell you.
Q99 Mr Hands: What would you say
are the problems that recent arrivals from Poland have here? Also
what is the impression that recent arrivals from Poland have of
community relations in Burnley, coming as an outsider, not quite
the man arriving from Mars that my colleague described but someone
arriving from Poland, what they would make of these two communities
in Burnley?
Mr Siwerski: I do not know, I
cannot tell you, I am not sure.
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