Examination of Witnesses (Quesitons 35-39)
MR JACK
PRINGLE AND
MR BILL
GETHING
12 NOVEMBER 2007
Q35 Chair: I think both of you have been
sitting there listening to the previous session so I imagine that
may have covered some of the ground that you might have wished
to but also may have raised some further issues. Can I ask you
first broadly and briefly about where you think the Government
should be going and how it should be investing to give direction
to reducing or improving the energy efficiency of existing housing?
Mr Pringle: I think we feel that
this is such a big issue in terms of energy for all the reasons
that you have already been given in terms of the amount of CO2
that is given off by the existing stock that it needs to be positively
tackled. At the moment it is perhaps the Cinderella of the construction
industry and the built environment. We would like to see a number
of measures taken. We think for it to be tackled effectively there
needs to be a systemic approach, a systems approach, that will
wash across the building stock in an effective way. What that
system approach is I think is a matter for debate but there are
certainly some ideas, not least some that were given by Professor
Power, that we would support too. For a start, the Code for Sustainable
Homes we believe should be extended to existing homes as well
as the new build homes. In many ways, the new build market is
relatively easy compared to the existing stock but we are seeing
in the new build area that the Code is already having some effect.
It is still at a voluntary stage but we are seeing, for instance,
the volume house builders voluntarily signing up to the Code and
so it does have an effect when it is combined with raising awareness,
a programme for raising awareness. We would certainly support
the equalisation of VAT and although we heard the arguments perhaps
against the equalisation of VAT, we see in projects time and time
again that the imbalance between zero-rated on new build and 17.5%
on refurbishment can skew the strategy of some projects and can
inhibit the final spend, if you like, on elements that would be
highly beneficial like renewable energy sources. So we think VAT
is certainly a barrier to it. I think there are other matters
that could be put in place but I think they are tactical rather
than strategic. You might use section 106 agreements in the planning
system to effect upgrading of existing stock by developers wanting
to do new buildings. You might see the Building Regulations being
used so that when somebody wants to extend their home, they have
a duty to upgrade the rest of their home while they are doing
that extension, et cetera. Bill, do you want to add anything
to that?
Mr Gething: I am not sure I should
add anything to that. Interesting on the VAT issue: I wonder what
would happen if you had the choice of paying the VAT or doing
some energy efficiency improvement to your home. I am extending
my house at the moment and if I had an extra £20,000 to spend
on renewables out of the tax, that would be excellent.
Q36 Mr Olner: Or if you buy recycled
materials.
Mr Gething: Exactly.
Q37 Chair: Can I just ask you briefly
to expand about extending the Code to the existing stock. Are
you suggesting that it should apply to the whole of a house if
alterations were made to it, or that there should be a time frame
for actually imposing it on all existing houses, whether you are
doing any alterations or not?
Mr Pringle: We are suggesting
the latter. Clearly, as in the new homes, it would start on a
voluntary basis. We do understand that there are issues about
fuel poverty going forward to make it mandatory, but it is something
which is clearly understood. We already have one standard for
one set of homes. Why do we not use the same standard for all
homes? People can understand it in a very simple way and it is
a very simple measure.
Mr Gething: The great thing about
the Code is it has set a framework and that has been an absolute
transformation in the new build world, that people know where
we are going up until 2016, they know the steps, so there is absolute
clarity and a long-term view, exactly as in Germany. There is
a 20-year policy and everyone knows what we are going to do for
20 years with clarity.
Mr Pringle: That could suite with
other measures, like if Building Regulations required you to do
something, if selling a house required you to do something. You
would have a set of measures to set it against.
Q38 Mr Olner: Home Information Packs
obviously have an emphasis on energy efficiency. Do you see those
being used in the future as perhaps a sharper tool than they are
now in encouraging energy efficiency?
Mr Gething: I think the strength
of the Home Information Pack is that it does make your energy
performance visible, and it is visible at a time when you are
making decisions about what you do to your home when you sell
it or when you buy it, so you can decide to spend some money.
It remains to be seen whether it will work as a voluntary measure,
whether in effect the market will generate the impetus to do things
to improve your energy performance. You can easily see it being
turned into a regulatory tool where it might be linked to your
Council Tax, as a lever for other sticks. This whole issue is
how many carrots do you have, how many sticks do you have and
when do carrots become sticks, and when do we suddenly realise
how serious this problem is?
Q39 John Cummings: You suggest that
widespread introduction of complex and expensive products such
as CHP or solar-powered heating may be necessary if the Government
is to meet its targets. Do you believe that the necessary improvements
can be made without such technologies?
Mr Pringle: There is work being
done, particularly in the Oxford 40 Percent House, which shows
that even if you insulate the lofts, the walls, replace the windows,
the doors, et cetera, to get the whole target met you are
going to have to introduce some of these renewable energy source
techniques that you have talked about. The short answer to your
question is we are going to need all of the tools that are going
to be available to us to reach the targets.
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