Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-115)
COUNCILLOR IAN
MEARNS, DR
PHILIP WEBBER
AND MR
OLIVER MYERS
12 NOVEMBER 2007
Q100 Mr Betts: Is there an LGA view
on this?
Councillor Mearns: I think it
would be premature to say that we have come to a collective view
on the issue but I certainly would back that.
Q101 Mr Betts: There is no pressure
from the LGA then? I understand the Government initially was predisposed
to look at changing the building regulations but got cold feet
on it. Has the LGA not taken that issue up?
Councillor Mearns: We have not
got a view on it but we are waiting for the report of the Climate
Change Commission to look at planning and building regulation
in conjunction with each other.
Q102 Mr Betts: So that is something
you will be considering in the light of the Commission's recommendations?
Councillor Mearns: Hopefully.
Chair: Just before I bring Bill in, to
correct the Select Committee record, we have heard of Uttlesford
before. Actually they gave evidence to us in the refuse inquiry.
I did not remember, I have just been told. That is to safeguard
their honour.
Q103 Mr Olner: We have spoken about
how we try to make individual homes more energy efficient, whether
they be owner-occupied or tenanted. Is there any stimulus for
local authorities to do anything on a cluster basis where they
look at a series of homes and put them into an energy saving area?
Councillor Mearns: We are always
looking at innovation. From my own authority's perspective, we
are seriously looking, in conjunction with Newcastle University,
at clean coal technology which we can use within the confines
of our own borough for combined heat and power systems into the
future. We are always looking at that sort of potential and innovation.
I do not think we would rule anything out. It is a very serious
issue and we have to be adventurous about this.
Q104 Mr Betts: Just to correct the
record on Uttlesford, I would not want to belittle them in any
way because I think they should be given credit for going out
and pioneering something which may be something larger authorities
might wish to take up in due course. That is something we will
be pleased to hear on from the LGA when you look at your Commission
report and reach a view about that particular issue. I just want
to come back to Decent Homes. I remember when we did an inquiry
it was an issue that we pursued with the minister at the time.
Do you think that Decent Homes is a missed opportunity in terms
of improving the energy efficiency of houses? It did not really
go anywhere, did it, in terms of raising standards?
Councillor Mearns: It has gone
some way. For instance, in my own authority area our Decent Homes
standard means where a normal window needs replacing it will be
replaced with a double-glazed unit, but it is not universal across
the piece.
Q105 Mr Betts: It was not required,
you have chosen to bring that standard in.
Councillor Mearns: That is absolutely
correct. To a certain extent it is a missed opportunity because
with a little bit more money and, to be fair, in my own authority
we have got £220 million towards Decent Homes standard work
for something like 25,000 units, so a very, very welcome addition
to the money supporting our council housing, but at the same time
with a little more we could have taken a couple of steps towards
making households completely energy efficient.
Q106 Mr Betts: Understanding the
situation, the focus on climate change and reducing carbon emissions
came about after the Decent Homes standards had been set and ministers
were reluctant to change the standards halfway through.
Councillor Mearns: Yes.
Q107 Mr Betts: What our Committee
said at the time was we are at where we are at, but as soon as
we have got this programme finished and we can see the finishing
post coming up in three or years' time we then ought to have Decent
Homes Plus and a key element of that ought to be energy efficiency.
Would you welcome that?
Councillor Mearns: I would welcome
it but, at the same time, revisiting the same homes is not an
efficient way of going about things.
Q108 Mr Betts: If most of those houses
have not been brought up to the sorts of standards we would like
to see, maybe some improvements have been done to their energy
efficiency but not up to the standard if the standard was set
today, have we not got to go back? We have not got any choice.
Councillor Mearns: Undoubtedly
we will, but I am not going to say it is going to be cheap.
Q109 Mr Betts: I do not think anyone
is asking about the cost, we are asking whether it is something
that ministers ought to be giving consideration to bearing in
mind that things always take a long time to plan and if we are
talking about finishing this programme in 2011 rather than 2010,
should we not all be gearing up for another round of taking things
on from where they are at?
Councillor Mearns: It would be
quite possible if there was a review at the moment to actually
deal with the houses which are going to be done between now and
2011 to that higher standard.
Mr Myers: A lot of the way the
review has been undertaken is to do with the extent of improvements
that have been used under Decent Homes, but I am aware that in
many authorities, although Decent Homes has been a minimum standard
for levels of insulation or heating, say, since the 2004 Building
Regulations that has meant those changes to those properties have
had to meet much higher standards, so certainly in Camden where
we have been improving insulation we have not just put 50ml in
or topped it up, we have actually put in to 250ml of insulation
because that is what the building regulations dictate.
Q110 Chair: The building regulations
are mandatory so presumably every other council will have been
required to do that.
Mr Myers: You would expect them
to have, yes.
Q111 Chair: If somebody was keeping
an eye on them, like their own building regs people.
Mr Myers: They should have internal
officers who would have joined that bit up, yes. There has been
no independent research on that but it would be a very interesting
piece of work.
Q112 Mr Betts: That is where the
authority was doing some improvements to insulation, there is
not a requirement to improve insulation beyond the previous minimum
standard as part of Decent Homes.
Mr Myers: If as part of Decent
Homes they were improving the wall or the roof they would have
had to have brought the insulation standards up to the prescribed
standards in the 2004 Building Regulations. If they were not doing
those works, some authorities would have done it because the opportunity
would have been so great for them to do so, but I am conjecturing,
we do not have a body of evidence on that.
Q113 Mr Betts: That may be something
we ought to have a look at as well.
Mr Myers: It would be interesting.
Q114 Mr Betts: In the end it costs
but it is possible to achieve improved standards in social rented
housing because in the end you have got, hopefully, responsible
landlords ultimately given the financial wherewithal to do something.
What about local authorities' responsibility in the private rented
sector, to do something there, where often you find some of the
worst housing conditions, often short-term tenancies and landlords
who sometimes do not have a very great interest? Obviously there
are some good private landlords but there are others who are probably
less than desirable. What about the local authorities' responsibilities
there? Where do you see that going?
Councillor Mearns: I cannot speak
for the LGA, but from my own perspective I have campaigned within
my own ward and my own authority for at least 16 or 17 years for
the licensing and registration of private landlords because of
a whole range of issues to do with antisocial behaviour, bad conditions,
benefit fraud, et cetera. There is a real case for uplifting
the opportunities that we have for licensing and registration
to make sure that homes are fit and proper, they are well insulated,
that people can live in a decent condition, but also to make sure
that the landlord is doing regular maintenance and tenancies are
let in a responsible way, properties are managed in a responsible
way and we are not getting abuse of the housing benefit system
by landlords to do a whole range of things which all of us would
regard as not fit and proper.
Q115 Mr Betts: Do you think, therefore,
that on the existing licensing arrangements, say for HMOs, we
ought to be adding in the requirement at some point to put energy
efficiency measures into those properties?
Councillor Mearns: Absolutely.
I am afraid to say that there are good and bad in all but where
private landlords are bad they can be very, very bad indeed but
are still having significant amounts of public money through housing
benefit paid into their coffers for the renting of those properties
on a regular basis. It is public money.
Chair: Thank you all very much indeed.
We would like to see a copy, if we could, of your Commission's
report when it comes out, that would be extremely helpful. Thank
you very much.
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