Examination of Witnesses (Questions 147-159)
MS GILL
OWEN
19 NOVEMBER 2007
Q147 John Cummings: Your submission repeatedly
notes the lack of serious engagement by the Department for Communities
and Local Government in cutting fuel poverty and carbon emissions
among those with low incomes. Can you advise the Committee what
you think the Department is failing to do and what you would like
to see?
Ms Owen: There are a number of
key areas that we would like DCLG to address
Q148 John Cummings: Can you start
with what they are failing to do, and then come on to what you
would like them to do?
Ms Owen: It is the same really,
and you can see it in different ways, but basically we have a
problem at the moment, which is highlighted in our submission,
about data sharing and the way in which local authorities share
data. We think the DCLG has an important role there in helping
to sort that out so that local authorities can do that. That is
one of the key things we would like to see addressed. The second
area is that we are very disappointed with the Decent Homes Standard
and the degree to which properties can be improved to meet the
Decent Homes Standard but still leave households in fuel poverty.
Those are the two key areas.
Q149 John Cummings: Why do you think
it is important for local authorities to share information? Who
would collect it: the Department centrally? Then what would you
expect the Department to do with it?
Ms Owen: At the moment local authorities,
through their departments which handle council tax and housing
benefit, know where the households are that would be eligible
for the Government grants, and the two key Government incentive
programmes: the Warm Front Scheme and the Energy Efficiency Commitment.
At the moment those bits of the local authority cannot share that
information with another bit of the local authority that might
be running a local programme to encourage people to take up those
grants. For example, a local authority might be working with energy
companies or voluntary groups to do that, and they cannot share
that information. We think that that is silly and that they should
be able to share that information. We have been encouraging that
to happen. It has not happened yet. In the Energy Bill that will
be going through Parliament in the next Session, the Government
will have a clause in that which will enable the Department of
Work and Pensions, for example, to share some information with
the energy companies which operate the Energy Efficiency Commitment.
It is happening there, so we think it is ironic that two ends
of a local authority cannot share information between themselves,
without breaching obviously important concerns about data protection,
but to make sure that people who are eligible for grants get them.
Many low-income households, particularly the most vulnerable,
do not take up grants and a lot of effort goes into trying to
find them. There is a ready-made base here of people, but it is
just the ways in which that information is shared.
Q150 Mr Betts: Was the Decent Homes
Programme a missed opportunity?
Ms Owen: Yes, we think it was.
The Decent Homes Programme basically sets standards within a number
of things, including for insulation and heating standards. At
the moment, a house can meet those standards if it is has some
insulation but not necessarily to the level that might be recommended
today. It does not have to have loft and cavity-wall insulation;
it could have one or the other. A property can meet the Decent
Homes Standard with electric heating, and in many places that
heating will not remove the household from fuel poverty. We really
do think it is a missed opportunity in a number of areas. In tower
blocks, for example, we might use CHP schemes and so forth, which
are not likely to be done because of the cost implications. You
meet the Decent Homes Standard in a lower cost way.
Q151 Mr Betts: What do you think
should happen? We are much of the way through the Decent Homes
Programme and many houses have been done, and some social landlords
have met high standards. Where do you think the programme should
go next? Should they change the standard halfway through or should
we be looking at a new standard following on from this programme?
Ms Owen: I think it is right that
a number of local authorities are going beyond the minimum. One
of the things we would like to see the DCLG do is encourage local
authorities. Obviously, it is difficult when you have passed the
standard itself and it does not require you to go higher, but
perhaps sharing information between authorities that have done.
Our recommendation is that authorities should do as much as they
can within the Standard, but we suggested that it should be increased
from 2010, so there is an opportunity there to take it forward
so that homes do come up to a 65 SAP rating, which by and large
will take households out of fuel poverty.
Q152 Mr Betts: When the Committee
looked at the Decent Homes Standards a few years ago it was suggested
that there should be a Decent Homes Plus to follow on.
Ms Owen: Yes, I think a Decent
Homes Plus—that is right, would follow on.
Q153 Mr Betts: You have established
on Warm Front that it was actually higher than required in the
social rented sector.
Ms Owen: Yes.
Q154 Mr Betts: Do you think Warm
Front by and large is absolutely right in terms of the standards?
Ms Owen: Yes, I think so. Warm
Front generally is putting in gas central heating where it can
and raising insulation levels. There are some issues with Warm
Front, obviously, because there is a maximum amount that can be
spent on each property, and sometimes that is not enough, and
so there are issues about how you finance that. However, the standard
that it aims to set is aiming at the right level. Clearly, there
are difficulties with solid wall properties where you cannot have
a cavity wall solution, and that is difficult, but generally we
think that is the sort of standard which will remove households
from fuel poverty.
Q155 Mr Betts: Is there sufficient
resource in Warm Front to deal with the number of properties?
Are you finding everybody who wants the programme gets it or are
some being left out?
Ms Owen: There are resource constraints,
yes. We have recommended that Warm Front will need more resources,
and we have had some concerns that Warm Front resources may not
be maintained at the level that they have been recently in future
years. Warm Front does need more resources, and there is also
an opportunity to combine Warm Front funding with the Energy Efficiency
Commitment funding that comes to the energy suppliers. Again,
local authorities have an important role there in helping to pull
those things together at local level; but there is clearly a need
for more resources, particularly if the Government's targets are
to be met.
Q156 Chair: Have you made an estimate
of how much extra resources would be required?
Ms Owen: Yes, we have. I am not
sure I have the figure with me, but we can certainly send it to
you.
Q157 Chair: Can you let us have it,
and make it clear how much you think is the extra that would be
needed for Warm Front and how much for Decent Homes?
Ms Owen: Yes, I can do that.
Q158 Chair: Do you think that if
Decent Homes and Warm Front were adequately funded that that would
deal with everybody in fuel poverty, or are there any other groups
that—
Ms Owen: They should actually,
because Decent Homes will deal with the social housing sector
and the Warm Front Programme will deal with the private sector.
The main difficulty in the private sector is finding particularly
people in private rented properties and getting them to take up
the measures. If the other resources were there, through those
two mechanisms I think we could cover all sectors. We would still
have take-up problems, which partly comes back to this data-sharing
issue about how you find people.
Q159 Martin Horwood: Is there not
a problem with Warm Front in that people who own the properties—talking
about private landlords—are not even paying the fuel bills,
so there is not much incentive, is there?
Ms Owen: I think that is right,
and that is where use of the Housing Health and Safety Rating
System is important in encouraging landlords to take up the grants.
You are right, that tenants have to get the landlords' permission
and the landlords are not paying the bill and are not terribly
interested. The way in which you can influence landlords gets
difficult without regulating that landlords have to take up this
grant in some way or another.
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